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[Music]

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this

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sprague

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welcome everyone to somewhere in the

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skies and uh today we are

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joined by professor avi loeb avi

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received a phd in plasma physics at age

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24

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from the hebrew university of jerusalem

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and was subsequently a long-term member

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of the institute for advanced study at

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princeton

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where he started to work in theoretical

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astrophysics

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in 93 he moved to harvard university as

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an assistant professor in the department

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of astronomy where he was tenured three

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years later

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he was also a visiting professorship at

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the weizmann institute of science

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and a sackler senior professorship by

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special

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appointment in the school of physics and

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astronomy

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at tel aviv university he is the father

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of the black hole institute a member of

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many other organizations

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has authored over 700

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research articles and has written five

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books

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uh the newest of which is the focus of

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our discussion

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today the book is extraterrestrial the

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first sign

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of intelligent life beyond earth and the

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author

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is avi logan he is here with us today

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avi thank you

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so much for joining me today on summer

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in the skies thank you for having me

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the fact that i have you here with me

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today avi uh

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is a huge honor and pleasure so i really

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had to roll out your resume there to uh

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to show uh my audience the

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depths we're going to go into in

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tonight's discussion i should say that

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all these labels mean

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does do not mean much for me because

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you know what really matters to me is

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you know

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in science is curiosity and just like

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kids you know they don't have labels

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uh they just try to learn about the

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world and that's what we are

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all doing you know and there was a a

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an article in the gazette the harvard

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gazette that i wrote where

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i was asked what is the one thing you

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would like to change about the world

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and i said i i just want my colleagues

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to behave more like

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kids that's that's all i wanted

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i i completely agree with you there i

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think you know

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as we as we age we lose that

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inhibition you know that or we have that

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inhibition i should say

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and curiosity kind of takes a back seat

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so

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it's good to see people like yourself

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out there uh

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challenging the mainstream challenging

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the norm

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and theorizing which is such an

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important part of science to begin with

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well it's the unfortunate aspect of

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people uh changing the pattern of their

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behavior from being kids to

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being adults is that is that they are

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starting to care more about themselves

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you know and about their ego and in

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academia you see that a lot

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uh you know professors once they get

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tenure they have students and postdocs

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that are behave as if they're in an echo

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chamber they

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echo whatever the senior person says and

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that amplifies the message but

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this is you know chasing uh awards and

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honors

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is really not what science is about it's

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not about

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us it's about understanding the world

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nature

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and that's what we do as kids

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and i just refuse to change that

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attitude and

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i don't really care about how many likes

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i have on twitter

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and whether i get prizes and whether uh

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you know the community around me uh a

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plow

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you know or not it doesn't really matter

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because what we are after is

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figuring out how the world works and

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you know if you look at the history you

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see situations like

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with galileo galilei who is a hero of

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science you know

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he argued that the earth is moving

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around the sun

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and the philosophers at the time said

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no we know the truth the sun moves

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around the earth and

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you know that's consistent with our

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religion and everything

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and then they put him in house arrest

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as a result but that didn't change the

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fact that

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the earth moves around the sun it only

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maintained their

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ignorance so you know my view is that

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reality stays the same

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irrespective of whether you ignore it or

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not it's the one thing that persists

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and if we uh ignore reality just because

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we are

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chasing our egos and you know trying to

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get honors and awards

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that's the wrong approach for finding

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the truth you know

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that's such a good point the truth does

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not care about

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our feelings right i think it's a good

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way to say it um well

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let's let's rewind just a little bit

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obvi if you don't mind um

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could you tell us a little about how you

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first

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got involved and interested in astronomy

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cosmology

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what led you to where you are today that

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burning curiosity

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when did that all start for you well it

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was

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purely by chance or circumstances i

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should say because

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i was born on a farm and then i used to

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collect eggs every afternoon and drive a

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tractor

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and i was mostly interested in

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philosophy because it addresses the most

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fundamental questions that we have

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unfortunately doesn't answer those

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questions and then

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i grew up in israel and you have to

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serve in the military at age 18

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it's obligatory and i prefer to do

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intellectual work the the thing that is

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closest to

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pursuing philosophy and so i was good in

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physics and they recruited me to an

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elite program that

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uses physics for the defense of the

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country and

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i finished my phd at age 24 the first

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one in this program

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and actually the project that i

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developed was

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the first international project funded

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by the strategic defense initiative of

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ronald reagan

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back in the nineteen and uh

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as a result i came to the us for visits

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because we were funded by the us

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government

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and the in one of those visits i visited

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the institute for advanced study

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where albert einstein was a professor uh

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decades earlier because someone told me

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that it's a very interesting place to

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visit

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uh and i met a person named john bakal

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that then

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gambled on me offered me a five-year

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fellowship

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under the condition that i'll switch to

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astrophysics

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so even though philosophy was my true

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love i said

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well you know that's an unusual

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opportunity i should not give up on it

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so i went into astrophysics i had to

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learn all the vocabulary i didn't know

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much

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i didn't know how the sun shines let's

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put it this way

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uh and so i learned it uh and then

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harvard university offered me an

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assistant professorship

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uh nobody else wanted that position

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because the chance of getting tenured

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was very small and so

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actually they chose someone else's

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number one and that someone said no i

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don't want that job because

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i will not be promoted um so they gave

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it to me and

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and then i was promoted three years

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later and after that

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about a decade and a half later i became

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the chair of that

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department the longest serving chair i

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should say

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since 2011 until 2020

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last year and

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at that point i realized you know that

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in fact even though i had an arranged

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marriage

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uh into astrophysics

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uh the the person that i'm married

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to is actually my true love because in

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astrophysics you have very fundamental

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questions philosophical questions

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that we can address with scientific

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tools such as

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you know what is our origins how did the

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and are we alone is there life out there

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you know these are really fundamental

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questions that you can find

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a discussion about in almost all

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religions uh if you look at the old

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testament the bible the first chapter

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discusses these questions now we can

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address those questions

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with scientific tools so i'm i'm really

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happy to pursue

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astrophysics even though i was forced

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such as life i completely understand

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that well i mean

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and you've come such a long way since

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then uh you even

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started your own institute which i'd

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love to talk to you about before we get

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to

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you know the the elephant slash

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object in the room omua but before that

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avi

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um the black hole institute could you

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tell us a little about what this is

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and uh why you decided to to found this

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institute this is fascinating to me

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yeah so this uh black hole initiative

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uh started it was inaugurated in 2016

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and

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the idea was to establish a center

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that brings together physicists

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mathematicians

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astronomers and philosophers that are

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all interested

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in black holes black holes are these

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extreme

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structures of space and time that they

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represent the ultimate prison

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even light cannot escape from them and

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einstein wrote his theory of gravity

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in november 1915

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published it and then a few months later

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carl schwarzschild

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was the first to derive an analytic

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solution a simple solution to those

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equations

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a hundred years later the first direct

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evidence for a black hole came

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in the form of gravitational waves when

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two black holes collided at the edge of

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the universe and

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sent the ripples in space and time that

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our ligo observatory detected discovered

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for which the nobel prize was awarded a

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couple of years later

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in physics so it's quite remarkable that

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only it took only a century between the

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idea of a black hole

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to when it was discovered and that was

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just around the time when we established

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the black hole initiative

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we didn't know about the ligo result

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00:11:03,670 --> 00:11:02,720
when we decided to establish it but then

291
00:11:06,230 --> 00:11:03,680
it came along

292
00:11:07,030 --> 00:11:06,240
it was publicized around the same time

293
00:11:09,430 --> 00:11:07,040
and

294
00:11:11,590 --> 00:11:09,440
since then i should say this year the

295
00:11:14,310 --> 00:11:11,600
nobel prize was given again

296
00:11:14,790 --> 00:11:14,320
to the study of black holes so we should

297
00:11:19,110 --> 00:11:14,800
in

298
00:11:21,509 --> 00:11:19,120
also the year

299
00:11:22,310 --> 00:11:21,519
uh when the nobel prize was avoided

300
00:11:25,030 --> 00:11:22,320
again

301
00:11:27,509 --> 00:11:25,040
for black holes we actually forecasted

302
00:11:29,990 --> 00:11:27,519
that it will become a major frontier

303
00:11:31,829 --> 00:11:30,000
in the study of the of the universe and

304
00:11:32,790 --> 00:11:31,839
i should say that einstein himself

305
00:11:36,150 --> 00:11:32,800
doubted

306
00:11:37,590 --> 00:11:36,160
that black holes exist in nature in 1939

307
00:11:39,190 --> 00:11:37,600
he wrote a paper saying

308
00:11:41,030 --> 00:11:39,200
black holes are just mathematical

309
00:11:42,150 --> 00:11:41,040
constructs they don't really exist in

310
00:11:44,949 --> 00:11:42,160
nature

311
00:11:46,949 --> 00:11:44,959
and he was wrong on that but this just

312
00:11:49,030 --> 00:11:46,959
illustrates that you know science is a

313
00:11:50,470 --> 00:11:49,040
learning experience even einstein was

314
00:11:54,069 --> 00:11:50,480
wrong

315
00:11:55,910 --> 00:11:54,079
actually three times late in his career

316
00:11:57,110 --> 00:11:55,920
and it's a learning experience when you

317
00:11:58,790 --> 00:11:57,120
work on the frontier

318
00:12:01,269 --> 00:11:58,800
sometimes you make mistakes you have to

319
00:12:03,269 --> 00:12:01,279
take risks and as i said before it's

320
00:12:05,670 --> 00:12:03,279
just like kids you know you stumble

321
00:12:07,030 --> 00:12:05,680
uh and but through that process you

322
00:12:10,069 --> 00:12:07,040
learn something new

323
00:12:12,150 --> 00:12:10,079
and you know all these fossa's all these

324
00:12:14,069 --> 00:12:12,160
people in academia that try to pretend

325
00:12:16,310 --> 00:12:14,079
as if they know everything

326
00:12:19,750 --> 00:12:16,320
or they want to protect their image by

327
00:12:21,829 --> 00:12:19,760
never being wrong by never taking a risk

328
00:12:23,190 --> 00:12:21,839
they are betraying the promise of

329
00:12:25,910 --> 00:12:23,200
science because

330
00:12:28,629 --> 00:12:25,920
they are not considering possibilities

331
00:12:30,710 --> 00:12:28,639
that might be true and revolutionary

332
00:12:32,389 --> 00:12:30,720
and for example the detection of

333
00:12:33,350 --> 00:12:32,399
gravitational waves from black hole

334
00:12:36,629 --> 00:12:33,360
collisions

335
00:12:39,190 --> 00:12:36,639
that was a revolutionary concept and

336
00:12:41,110 --> 00:12:39,200
a lot of people in the mainstream

337
00:12:44,470 --> 00:12:41,120
doubted that it's possible

338
00:12:46,069 --> 00:12:44,480
uh but now we use it so

339
00:12:48,069 --> 00:12:46,079
that's why i don't care about the number

340
00:12:50,389 --> 00:12:48,079
of likes i get on twitter

341
00:12:51,750 --> 00:12:50,399
because you know many of the people that

342
00:12:54,949 --> 00:12:51,760
pioneered things

343
00:12:55,670 --> 00:12:54,959
in science uh were not particularly

344
00:13:00,870 --> 00:12:55,680
liked

345
00:13:05,269 --> 00:13:03,750
absolutely and um we're gonna get into

346
00:13:07,829 --> 00:13:05,279
sort of that uh

347
00:13:08,389 --> 00:13:07,839
rebellious nature that i highly respect

348
00:13:11,030 --> 00:13:08,399
about

349
00:13:12,470 --> 00:13:11,040
the work you've done and and many other

350
00:13:15,030 --> 00:13:12,480
you know scientists in

351
00:13:16,230 --> 00:13:15,040
all different fields as well um who

352
00:13:18,550 --> 00:13:16,240
aren't afraid

353
00:13:20,949 --> 00:13:18,560
to throw the darts at the wall and see

354
00:13:21,350 --> 00:13:20,959
what sticks you know i should say one

355
00:13:23,590 --> 00:13:21,360
thing

356
00:13:25,269 --> 00:13:23,600
though uh that just before we

357
00:13:26,310 --> 00:13:25,279
inaugurated the black hole initiative

358
00:13:29,190 --> 00:13:26,320
about the

359
00:13:31,509 --> 00:13:29,200
four months before that uh actually half

360
00:13:33,190 --> 00:13:31,519
a year before that i i met the stephen

361
00:13:37,030 --> 00:13:33,200
hawking in london

362
00:13:38,629 --> 00:13:37,040
at some event and his caretaker said

363
00:13:40,470 --> 00:13:38,639
would you mind saying something to

364
00:13:41,910 --> 00:13:40,480
stephen he's bored would you mind

365
00:13:44,710 --> 00:13:41,920
speaking to him

366
00:13:46,230 --> 00:13:44,720
and i went to stephen and said because

367
00:13:48,150 --> 00:13:46,240
everyone around was not really a

368
00:13:49,990 --> 00:13:48,160
scientist and so i went to him and said

369
00:13:51,910 --> 00:13:50,000
look we're about to inaugurate

370
00:13:54,069 --> 00:13:51,920
the black hole initiative black holes

371
00:13:56,310 --> 00:13:54,079
were the focus of his career

372
00:13:57,910 --> 00:13:56,320
and i said that we would love it if you

373
00:14:01,110 --> 00:13:57,920
were to come and visit us

374
00:14:01,750 --> 00:14:01,120
for the inauguration and then i left

375
00:14:03,670 --> 00:14:01,760
because

376
00:14:05,509 --> 00:14:03,680
it took him a long time to respond and i

377
00:14:07,509 --> 00:14:05,519
was not patient enough to wait like 10

378
00:14:09,670 --> 00:14:07,519
minutes for his response

379
00:14:10,629 --> 00:14:09,680
so i thought well nothing will happen as

380
00:14:14,310 --> 00:14:10,639
a result but then

381
00:14:16,389 --> 00:14:14,320
a few months later he asked his doctor

382
00:14:18,230 --> 00:14:16,399
to travel across the atlantic for the

383
00:14:19,430 --> 00:14:18,240
first time in four years and come to the

384
00:14:21,750 --> 00:14:19,440
inauguration

385
00:14:22,550 --> 00:14:21,760
the only problem was that this journey

386
00:14:25,509 --> 00:14:22,560
would cost

387
00:14:28,069 --> 00:14:25,519
half a million dollars but i found a way

388
00:14:31,189 --> 00:14:28,079
there was a way to get that funding

389
00:14:31,750 --> 00:14:31,199
and he came and he actually visited my

390
00:14:34,389 --> 00:14:31,760
house

391
00:14:35,110 --> 00:14:34,399
uh for passover he's not jewish but he

392
00:14:37,910 --> 00:14:35,120
came for that

393
00:14:39,350 --> 00:14:37,920
and it was quite remarkable uh to have

394
00:14:42,629 --> 00:14:39,360
him to host him

395
00:14:44,949 --> 00:14:42,639
at our home wow

396
00:14:45,750 --> 00:14:44,959
what a story that you'll always have to

397
00:14:47,509 --> 00:14:45,760
treasure

398
00:14:49,189 --> 00:14:47,519
i mean having stephen hawking in your

399
00:14:50,389 --> 00:14:49,199
home i i can't even imagine

400
00:14:52,629 --> 00:14:50,399
i can't even imagine what that would be

401
00:14:57,670 --> 00:14:52,639
like oh my gosh um

402
00:15:00,550 --> 00:14:57,680
well okay so let's move to 2017

403
00:15:02,310 --> 00:15:00,560
and this is when news broke of this

404
00:15:05,430 --> 00:15:02,320
object

405
00:15:07,350 --> 00:15:05,440
um and the whole world

406
00:15:08,870 --> 00:15:07,360
was talking about this whether it was in

407
00:15:11,110 --> 00:15:08,880
the world of science or

408
00:15:12,069 --> 00:15:11,120
or religion or um us in the

409
00:15:15,189 --> 00:15:12,079
quote-unquote

410
00:15:18,550 --> 00:15:15,199
ufo world ufo community

411
00:15:21,509 --> 00:15:18,560
and the possibility that oh my gosh

412
00:15:23,509 --> 00:15:21,519
this could be the first object to come

413
00:15:26,150 --> 00:15:23,519
into our solar system so

414
00:15:27,509 --> 00:15:26,160
i guess would you mind kind of walking

415
00:15:30,550 --> 00:15:27,519
us through those

416
00:15:31,509 --> 00:15:30,560
first moments avi of when it was

417
00:15:34,310 --> 00:15:31,519
discovered

418
00:15:36,069 --> 00:15:34,320
um you know we we heard about it later

419
00:15:38,310 --> 00:15:36,079
than when it was actually

420
00:15:41,430 --> 00:15:38,320
uh first discovered so could you kind of

421
00:15:44,389 --> 00:15:41,440
walk through the entire

422
00:15:45,749 --> 00:15:44,399
origin story if you will yes so it was

423
00:15:49,269 --> 00:15:45,759
spotted

424
00:15:53,269 --> 00:15:49,279
on october 19th 2017

425
00:15:57,269 --> 00:15:53,279
and by a telescope in hawaii

426
00:15:59,110 --> 00:15:57,279
on mount haleakala called pan stars

427
00:16:00,550 --> 00:15:59,120
and because it was discovered in hawaii

428
00:16:03,110 --> 00:16:00,560
it was given

429
00:16:03,749 --> 00:16:03,120
a name from the hawaiian language that

430
00:16:07,670 --> 00:16:03,759
means

431
00:16:10,710 --> 00:16:07,680
scout a messenger from far away

432
00:16:13,350 --> 00:16:10,720
that's the origin of the name and it's

433
00:16:13,990 --> 00:16:13,360
because the object is the very first one

434
00:16:17,110 --> 00:16:14,000
that we

435
00:16:19,430 --> 00:16:17,120
spotted from outside the solar system

436
00:16:22,150 --> 00:16:19,440
it was moving too fast to be bound to

437
00:16:23,990 --> 00:16:22,160
the sun that was recognized immediately

438
00:16:26,069 --> 00:16:24,000
that it's an interstellar object an

439
00:16:29,030 --> 00:16:26,079
invader of the

440
00:16:29,910 --> 00:16:29,040
solar system it was spotted only when it

441
00:16:32,629 --> 00:16:29,920
was

442
00:16:34,629 --> 00:16:32,639
moving away from us if we would have

443
00:16:37,590 --> 00:16:34,639
detected it in july

444
00:16:38,310 --> 00:16:37,600
that year at that time it was moving

445
00:16:42,069 --> 00:16:38,320
towards us

446
00:16:45,910 --> 00:16:42,079
as it turns out i was visiting

447
00:16:47,829 --> 00:16:45,920
that mountain in hawaii in maui we were

448
00:16:48,710 --> 00:16:47,839
on vacation with my family and we went

449
00:16:57,990 --> 00:16:48,720
to

450
00:17:01,030 --> 00:16:58,000
at that time we would have spotted it

451
00:17:01,590 --> 00:17:01,040
then it would have been possible uh to

452
00:17:04,870 --> 00:17:01,600
send

453
00:17:05,510 --> 00:17:04,880
a camera on a cubesat that will meet it

454
00:17:08,630 --> 00:17:05,520
halfway

455
00:17:10,870 --> 00:17:08,640
and take a photograph of it but since it

456
00:17:13,909 --> 00:17:10,880
was discovered only when it started the

457
00:17:15,510 --> 00:17:13,919
moving away from us uh it was too late

458
00:17:16,390 --> 00:17:15,520
it's sort of like having a guest for

459
00:17:17,990 --> 00:17:16,400
dinner

460
00:17:20,150 --> 00:17:18,000
and by the time you realize that the

461
00:17:22,069 --> 00:17:20,160
guest is strange or weird or

462
00:17:24,309 --> 00:17:22,079
interesting it's already out of the

463
00:17:27,429 --> 00:17:24,319
front door into the dark street

464
00:17:28,470 --> 00:17:27,439
that was the experience now why was it

465
00:17:31,190 --> 00:17:28,480
strange

466
00:17:32,870 --> 00:17:31,200
um at first astronomers thought it's

467
00:17:34,710 --> 00:17:32,880
just like any other rock

468
00:17:37,990 --> 00:17:34,720
that we have seen before in the solar

469
00:17:40,070 --> 00:17:38,000
system so most likely it's a comet

470
00:17:42,230 --> 00:17:40,080
and then the problem was that there was

471
00:17:43,270 --> 00:17:42,240
no cometary tail there was no trail of

472
00:17:47,110 --> 00:17:43,280
gas

473
00:17:50,310 --> 00:17:47,120
behind it as a result of evaporation of

474
00:17:51,110 --> 00:17:50,320
ice on its surface um so then people

475
00:17:53,590 --> 00:17:51,120
said oh

476
00:17:54,230 --> 00:17:53,600
well okay so it's not a comet but maybe

477
00:17:56,950 --> 00:17:54,240
it's just

478
00:17:58,230 --> 00:17:56,960
rock just an asteroid the problem with

479
00:18:01,750 --> 00:17:58,240
that was that

480
00:18:04,630 --> 00:18:01,760
it showed an extra push

481
00:18:06,390 --> 00:18:04,640
um in addition to the force of gravity

482
00:18:09,909 --> 00:18:06,400
coming from the sun

483
00:18:12,630 --> 00:18:09,919
and such a push is given to comets

484
00:18:14,630 --> 00:18:12,640
from the rocket effect from gases

485
00:18:16,710 --> 00:18:14,640
pushing them forward this the gas

486
00:18:17,750 --> 00:18:16,720
goes backwards and just like in a jet

487
00:18:21,750 --> 00:18:17,760
plane

488
00:18:24,070 --> 00:18:21,760
um so there is this extra push but we

489
00:18:26,390 --> 00:18:24,080
don't see a cometary tail so how what

490
00:18:28,230 --> 00:18:26,400
gives it this extra push the other

491
00:18:31,350 --> 00:18:28,240
peculiar fact was that

492
00:18:33,909 --> 00:18:31,360
the object was tumbling the brightness

493
00:18:35,669 --> 00:18:33,919
that we received from it uh as a result

494
00:18:38,070 --> 00:18:35,679
of reflected sunlight

495
00:18:40,230 --> 00:18:38,080
changed by a factor of ten and that

496
00:18:41,190 --> 00:18:40,240
meant that the area of the object on the

497
00:18:43,909 --> 00:18:41,200
sky

498
00:18:46,070 --> 00:18:43,919
was changing as it was spinning around

499
00:18:49,110 --> 00:18:46,080
was changing by a factor of 10

500
00:18:51,990 --> 00:18:49,120
every 8 hours and

501
00:18:53,669 --> 00:18:52,000
that means that its geometry is very

502
00:18:56,870 --> 00:18:53,679
extreme because even if you take

503
00:18:59,110 --> 00:18:56,880
a razor thin piece of paper and you let

504
00:19:02,789 --> 00:18:59,120
it tumble in the wind

505
00:19:05,190 --> 00:19:02,799
you don't see it edge on

506
00:19:07,350 --> 00:19:05,200
most of the time and a factor of 10

507
00:19:08,710 --> 00:19:07,360
changing the area of this piece of paper

508
00:19:11,750 --> 00:19:08,720
means that it really is

509
00:19:14,549 --> 00:19:11,760
quite flat and long

510
00:19:16,070 --> 00:19:14,559
now the the best fit to the amount of

511
00:19:19,190 --> 00:19:16,080
light that we received

512
00:19:20,390 --> 00:19:19,200
as it was tumbling is that of a from a

513
00:19:22,710 --> 00:19:20,400
pancake shape

514
00:19:24,789 --> 00:19:22,720
from a flattened object not from a cigar

515
00:19:26,150 --> 00:19:24,799
shaped object as it was depicted in many

516
00:19:28,630 --> 00:19:26,160
cartoons

517
00:19:30,710 --> 00:19:28,640
so we know that most likely it's a it

518
00:19:32,950 --> 00:19:30,720
was a flat object

519
00:19:34,630 --> 00:19:32,960
that was pushed by some force and you

520
00:19:36,390 --> 00:19:34,640
know we suggested in a paper that we

521
00:19:38,710 --> 00:19:36,400
wrote in a scientific paper with

522
00:19:39,510 --> 00:19:38,720
my postdoc will be ali we suggest that

523
00:19:41,909 --> 00:19:39,520
maybe

524
00:19:43,110 --> 00:19:41,919
it's the reflection of sunlight that

525
00:19:44,630 --> 00:19:43,120
pushed it

526
00:19:47,909 --> 00:19:44,640
and for that you need the object to be

527
00:19:50,710 --> 00:19:47,919
extremely thin sort of like a sail

528
00:19:52,789 --> 00:19:50,720
uh on a sailboat uh that is pushed by

529
00:19:55,029 --> 00:19:52,799
wind except here it's being pushed by

530
00:19:58,150 --> 00:19:55,039
the reflection of sunlight

531
00:19:59,590 --> 00:19:58,160
and if that is the case then it must be

532
00:20:01,909 --> 00:19:59,600
artificially produced

533
00:20:03,510 --> 00:20:01,919
because you don't get such objects in

534
00:20:05,830 --> 00:20:03,520
nature

535
00:20:07,990 --> 00:20:05,840
and so the suggestion was that just like

536
00:20:11,590 --> 00:20:08,000
our civilization is developing

537
00:20:13,669 --> 00:20:11,600
light sails for space exploration

538
00:20:15,350 --> 00:20:13,679
these are sails that are pushed by light

539
00:20:16,310 --> 00:20:15,360
where you don't need to carry the fuel

540
00:20:19,350 --> 00:20:16,320
with you

541
00:20:23,110 --> 00:20:19,360
in order to move the spacecraft

542
00:20:25,750 --> 00:20:23,120
perhaps another civilization already

543
00:20:26,549 --> 00:20:25,760
mastered this technology and or maybe

544
00:20:29,750 --> 00:20:26,559
it's some

545
00:20:30,149 --> 00:20:29,760
you know uh surface layer of spacecraft

546
00:20:33,270 --> 00:20:30,159
that

547
00:20:36,390 --> 00:20:33,280
was torn apart and we it's just the

548
00:20:39,830 --> 00:20:36,400
you know very thin i should say

549
00:20:42,310 --> 00:20:39,840
in september this year i mean 2020

550
00:20:43,270 --> 00:20:42,320
there was another object discovered that

551
00:20:46,230 --> 00:20:43,280
looked a bit

552
00:20:47,110 --> 00:20:46,240
strange in the sense that it also showed

553
00:20:50,630 --> 00:20:47,120
a push

554
00:20:53,830 --> 00:20:50,640
uh by sunlight uh and

555
00:20:55,909 --> 00:20:53,840
except that it was bound to the sun

556
00:20:58,070 --> 00:20:55,919
moving roughly at the orbit of the earth

557
00:21:00,149 --> 00:20:58,080
and so when astronomers

558
00:21:01,990 --> 00:21:00,159
uh extrapolated back in time they found

559
00:21:06,230 --> 00:21:02,000
that in 1966

560
00:21:08,230 --> 00:21:06,240
it actually came from the earth and

561
00:21:09,430 --> 00:21:08,240
then of course they went to the history

562
00:21:12,310 --> 00:21:09,440
books and found

563
00:21:13,430 --> 00:21:12,320
there was actually a lunar lander called

564
00:21:15,350 --> 00:21:13,440
surveyor 2

565
00:21:17,590 --> 00:21:15,360
a mission that actually failed but the

566
00:21:19,430 --> 00:21:17,600
rocket booster from that mission

567
00:21:21,350 --> 00:21:19,440
was kicked into space and that is the

568
00:21:23,909 --> 00:21:21,360
object that was discovered

569
00:21:26,549 --> 00:21:23,919
and that was a hollow very thin object

570
00:21:28,390 --> 00:21:26,559
and that's why it exhibited this push so

571
00:21:29,590 --> 00:21:28,400
we can tell the difference between a

572
00:21:31,590 --> 00:21:29,600
rock

573
00:21:33,029 --> 00:21:31,600
uh that cannot be pushed by sunlight

574
00:21:36,310 --> 00:21:33,039
because it's uh

575
00:21:38,149 --> 00:21:36,320
it's full i mean the area of of its

576
00:21:40,870 --> 00:21:38,159
surface relative to its weight

577
00:21:41,510 --> 00:21:40,880
is not big enough uh only for a very

578
00:21:44,149 --> 00:21:41,520
thin

579
00:21:45,270 --> 00:21:44,159
object you can get a push we can

580
00:21:48,549 --> 00:21:45,280
distinguish a rock

581
00:21:51,830 --> 00:21:48,559
from a hollow or a thin

582
00:21:55,590 --> 00:21:51,840
artificial object in the case of

583
00:21:58,950 --> 00:21:55,600
this rocket booster it was made by us

584
00:22:01,990 --> 00:21:58,960
in the case of umuamua who knows and

585
00:22:04,070 --> 00:22:02,000
who knows what the purpose was so

586
00:22:05,110 --> 00:22:04,080
you know we just put this possibility on

587
00:22:07,350 --> 00:22:05,120
the table

588
00:22:09,430 --> 00:22:07,360
and to me the most surprising thing is

589
00:22:12,230 --> 00:22:09,440
we didn't arrange for any press

590
00:22:13,510 --> 00:22:12,240
release or going to the press and then

591
00:22:16,549 --> 00:22:13,520
there was a huge

592
00:22:17,669 --> 00:22:16,559
a viral response from the media and at

593
00:22:19,830 --> 00:22:17,679
the same time

594
00:22:22,149 --> 00:22:19,840
a big push back from the scientific

595
00:22:24,230 --> 00:22:22,159
community there is a taboo

596
00:22:26,310 --> 00:22:24,240
you're not supposed to discuss an

597
00:22:29,590 --> 00:22:26,320
interpretation that relates

598
00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:29,600
some anomalies that you see to uh

599
00:22:33,270 --> 00:22:31,200
intelligence extraterrestrial

600
00:22:34,710 --> 00:22:33,280
intelligence right and the question is

601
00:22:37,990 --> 00:22:34,720
why today

602
00:22:39,350 --> 00:22:38,000
this is really um unjustified and i can

603
00:22:42,230 --> 00:22:39,360
explain why

604
00:22:43,270 --> 00:22:42,240
uh yeah well let's let's discuss that

605
00:22:46,390 --> 00:22:43,280
now you mentioned

606
00:22:48,470 --> 00:22:46,400
artificial and interstellar so i think a

607
00:22:49,909 --> 00:22:48,480
lot of people's minds would naturally go

608
00:22:52,870 --> 00:22:49,919
to

609
00:22:55,029 --> 00:22:52,880
alien and of course this is what the

610
00:22:57,590 --> 00:22:55,039
media is going to latch on to

611
00:22:59,430 --> 00:22:57,600
uh this is what the i would assume

612
00:23:02,710 --> 00:22:59,440
mainstream scientific community

613
00:23:04,310 --> 00:23:02,720
would push against so i mean

614
00:23:05,990 --> 00:23:04,320
i guess before we get into the

615
00:23:08,789 --> 00:23:06,000
possibilities of why

616
00:23:09,909 --> 00:23:08,799
this could be from a extraterrestrial

617
00:23:11,909 --> 00:23:09,919
intelligence

618
00:23:13,510 --> 00:23:11,919
what was the reception when you first

619
00:23:15,990 --> 00:23:13,520
published this paper by

620
00:23:18,310 --> 00:23:16,000
your peers and uh you know your

621
00:23:20,470 --> 00:23:18,320
colleagues and overall how did they

622
00:23:21,750 --> 00:23:20,480
respond to these these theories that you

623
00:23:23,909 --> 00:23:21,760
were bringing forth

624
00:23:26,549 --> 00:23:23,919
well the strange thing is that the the

625
00:23:28,630 --> 00:23:26,559
mainstream scientists

626
00:23:30,549 --> 00:23:28,640
came together and most of them said

627
00:23:32,710 --> 00:23:30,559
business as usual forget about it they

628
00:23:34,630 --> 00:23:32,720
wrote a big paper saying

629
00:23:36,470 --> 00:23:34,640
you know there are all these anomalies

630
00:23:38,070 --> 00:23:36,480
but in principle

631
00:23:40,230 --> 00:23:38,080
there might be a natural process that

632
00:23:41,909 --> 00:23:40,240
explains them but then a few

633
00:23:43,750 --> 00:23:41,919
of the mainstream people tried to

634
00:23:45,909 --> 00:23:43,760
explain these anomalies

635
00:23:47,669 --> 00:23:45,919
and they came up with something that we

636
00:23:50,390 --> 00:23:47,679
have never seen before

637
00:23:50,710 --> 00:23:50,400
they said oh maybe it's a dust bunny you

638
00:23:53,269 --> 00:23:50,720
know

639
00:23:55,350 --> 00:23:53,279
a collection of dust particles a very

640
00:23:57,430 --> 00:23:55,360
porous object that is sort of like a

641
00:24:00,070 --> 00:23:57,440
cloud you know very porous

642
00:24:01,029 --> 00:24:00,080
a hundred times less dense than air a

643
00:24:03,029 --> 00:24:01,039
cloud

644
00:24:04,310 --> 00:24:03,039
that is being pushed by sunlight that

645
00:24:06,310 --> 00:24:04,320
was one proposal

646
00:24:08,149 --> 00:24:06,320
the problem with that is such an object

647
00:24:10,230 --> 00:24:08,159
would not survive the journey

648
00:24:11,269 --> 00:24:10,240
most likely there was another proposal

649
00:24:14,470 --> 00:24:11,279
maybe it's a

650
00:24:15,269 --> 00:24:14,480
hydrogen iceberg we've never seen such a

651
00:24:17,990 --> 00:24:15,279
thing

652
00:24:18,310 --> 00:24:18,000
and in a paper that i wrote subsequently

653
00:24:20,950 --> 00:24:18,320
with

654
00:24:22,070 --> 00:24:20,960
a colleague of mine tim juan we showed

655
00:24:24,230 --> 00:24:22,080
that

656
00:24:26,230 --> 00:24:24,240
such an iceberg would evaporate very

657
00:24:27,029 --> 00:24:26,240
quickly it will not survive the journey

658
00:24:29,190 --> 00:24:27,039
as well

659
00:24:30,870 --> 00:24:29,200
so you can you can tell the people that

660
00:24:31,669 --> 00:24:30,880
thought about the anomalies and tried to

661
00:24:34,950 --> 00:24:31,679
explain them

662
00:24:35,830 --> 00:24:34,960
as a natural product of some natural

663
00:24:38,710 --> 00:24:35,840
process

664
00:24:39,430 --> 00:24:38,720
had a very difficult time doing that and

665
00:24:41,350 --> 00:24:39,440
yet

666
00:24:43,430 --> 00:24:41,360
the majority of people that didn't

667
00:24:46,149 --> 00:24:43,440
really look at the details

668
00:24:48,070 --> 00:24:46,159
were dismissing it and we're ridiculing

669
00:24:50,710 --> 00:24:48,080
the actual possibility

670
00:24:52,070 --> 00:24:50,720
that it might be artificial and and that

671
00:24:54,230 --> 00:24:52,080
i find

672
00:24:56,070 --> 00:24:54,240
inappropriate and unhealthy and i'll

673
00:24:58,630 --> 00:24:56,080
explain why because

674
00:25:01,350 --> 00:24:58,640
to me the existence of another

675
00:25:03,669 --> 00:25:01,360
civilization is not a speculation

676
00:25:05,350 --> 00:25:03,679
we know that roughly half of the

677
00:25:08,390 --> 00:25:05,360
sun-like stars

678
00:25:10,549 --> 00:25:08,400
have a planet of the size of the earth

679
00:25:12,549 --> 00:25:10,559
roughly the distance of the earth from

680
00:25:13,750 --> 00:25:12,559
the sun so that it can have liquid water

681
00:25:15,830 --> 00:25:13,760
on the surface and the

682
00:25:17,029 --> 00:25:15,840
chemistry of life as we know it so there

683
00:25:19,830 --> 00:25:17,039
are billions of such

684
00:25:21,430 --> 00:25:19,840
earth sun systems in the milky way

685
00:25:23,909 --> 00:25:21,440
galaxy alone

686
00:25:25,029 --> 00:25:23,919
and what's you know if you arrange for

687
00:25:26,789 --> 00:25:25,039
the same

688
00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:26,799
circumstances what's the chance that you

689
00:25:30,549 --> 00:25:28,080
will not get the same

690
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:30,559
outcome if you roll the dice billions of

691
00:25:34,149 --> 00:25:31,360
times

692
00:25:34,870 --> 00:25:34,159
you know you definitely should have a

693
00:25:37,350 --> 00:25:34,880
lot of

694
00:25:39,510 --> 00:25:37,360
results you know systems in which you

695
00:25:41,029 --> 00:25:39,520
have life as we know it

696
00:25:42,789 --> 00:25:41,039
i would find that to be the most

697
00:25:46,230 --> 00:25:42,799
conservative

698
00:25:48,950 --> 00:25:46,240
uh assumption to say we are not special

699
00:25:50,549 --> 00:25:48,960
we are very common you know when my

700
00:25:52,149 --> 00:25:50,559
daughters were young

701
00:25:54,149 --> 00:25:52,159
they thought that the world centers of

702
00:25:54,870 --> 00:25:54,159
them on them that they are very unique

703
00:25:56,470 --> 00:25:54,880
and special

704
00:25:58,310 --> 00:25:56,480
then they went to the street and saw

705
00:26:00,230 --> 00:25:58,320
other kids and

706
00:26:02,870 --> 00:26:00,240
then as a result of that they got a

707
00:26:04,310 --> 00:26:02,880
better perspective and matured

708
00:26:07,029 --> 00:26:04,320
many of my colleagues and our

709
00:26:09,430 --> 00:26:07,039
civilization is not mature yet

710
00:26:11,510 --> 00:26:09,440
many of the people think that we are

711
00:26:14,630 --> 00:26:11,520
unique and special

712
00:26:17,269 --> 00:26:14,640
and the only way to change that

713
00:26:17,830 --> 00:26:17,279
misconception is to find evidence for

714
00:26:21,430 --> 00:26:17,840
others

715
00:26:23,350 --> 00:26:21,440
out there and i i

716
00:26:25,510 --> 00:26:23,360
not only believe that that we are not

717
00:26:26,149 --> 00:26:25,520
alone but i don't think that we are the

718
00:26:28,310 --> 00:26:26,159
sharpest

719
00:26:29,510 --> 00:26:28,320
cookie in the jar that we are the

720
00:26:31,669 --> 00:26:29,520
smartest kid on the

721
00:26:33,669 --> 00:26:31,679
block you know that we are probably

722
00:26:34,070 --> 00:26:33,679
typical and there are things that are

723
00:26:36,950 --> 00:26:34,080
much

724
00:26:37,750 --> 00:26:36,960
smarter than we are because you know if

725
00:26:40,390 --> 00:26:37,760
you open the

726
00:26:41,029 --> 00:26:40,400
newspaper every morning you know humans

727
00:26:43,430 --> 00:26:41,039
may

728
00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:43,440
make a lot of mistakes we waste a lot of

729
00:26:47,190 --> 00:26:44,640
time and

730
00:26:48,789 --> 00:26:47,200
energy and money fighting each other

731
00:26:50,310 --> 00:26:48,799
doing things that are not necessarily

732
00:26:53,830 --> 00:26:50,320
for the better

733
00:26:55,029 --> 00:26:53,840
good of everyone uh so we we certainly

734
00:26:57,669 --> 00:26:55,039
do not behave as

735
00:26:58,870 --> 00:26:57,679
as the smartest you know kid on the

736
00:27:00,310 --> 00:26:58,880
block and

737
00:27:02,070 --> 00:27:00,320
and you know if you just think about it

738
00:27:04,470 --> 00:27:02,080
if you look at recipe books for

739
00:27:06,630 --> 00:27:04,480
for cakes and you can see that out of

740
00:27:08,230 --> 00:27:06,640
the same ingredients you can make

741
00:27:10,149 --> 00:27:08,240
very different cakes depending on how

742
00:27:12,070 --> 00:27:10,159
you mix them and

743
00:27:13,990 --> 00:27:12,080
under which condition and what order and

744
00:27:15,029 --> 00:27:14,000
so forth so what's the chance that if

745
00:27:17,830 --> 00:27:15,039
you take the

746
00:27:18,389 --> 00:27:17,840
soup of chemicals that was on earth that

747
00:27:23,269 --> 00:27:18,399
by

748
00:27:26,389 --> 00:27:23,279
chance that we are the

749
00:27:27,269 --> 00:27:26,399
the best cake that you can imagine very

750
00:27:29,830 --> 00:27:27,279
small

751
00:27:30,470 --> 00:27:29,840
so we are one of those typical cakes you

752
00:27:32,149 --> 00:27:30,480
know there are

753
00:27:33,669 --> 00:27:32,159
cakes that are much more intelligent

754
00:27:36,549 --> 00:27:33,679
much better than us

755
00:27:38,149 --> 00:27:36,559
in many respects i'm sure uh and we just

756
00:27:39,750 --> 00:27:38,159
need to find evidence for them now of

757
00:27:41,029 --> 00:27:39,760
course you can bury your head in the

758
00:27:43,190 --> 00:27:41,039
sand and say

759
00:27:44,230 --> 00:27:43,200
i don't want to talk about it i don't

760
00:27:46,870 --> 00:27:44,240
want to

761
00:27:49,110 --> 00:27:46,880
consider that possibility that will only

762
00:27:51,990 --> 00:27:49,120
maintain your ignorance

763
00:27:53,990 --> 00:27:52,000
but reality will not go away yeah

764
00:27:57,269 --> 00:27:54,000
absolutely and you know uh

765
00:28:00,870 --> 00:27:57,279
we're so young as a species as a planet

766
00:28:04,149 --> 00:28:00,880
and i i i tend to agree with you that

767
00:28:06,950 --> 00:28:04,159
we base everything obvious seems in

768
00:28:08,070 --> 00:28:06,960
uh the sort of mainstream perception of

769
00:28:10,549 --> 00:28:08,080
science on

770
00:28:11,750 --> 00:28:10,559
uh our limitations here on our planet

771
00:28:14,710 --> 00:28:11,760
our limitation

772
00:28:16,149 --> 00:28:14,720
of our own physics our own uh dynamics

773
00:28:19,190 --> 00:28:16,159
our own science

774
00:28:22,149 --> 00:28:19,200
where the possibilities are literally

775
00:28:22,950 --> 00:28:22,159
endless of what kind of life could be

776
00:28:25,430 --> 00:28:22,960
out there

777
00:28:26,389 --> 00:28:25,440
how it originated how it thrives and how

778
00:28:30,549 --> 00:28:26,399
it survives

779
00:28:31,269 --> 00:28:30,559
so right it may be very different than

780
00:28:33,269 --> 00:28:31,279
we are

781
00:28:35,350 --> 00:28:33,279
you know when you go on a blind date

782
00:28:37,269 --> 00:28:35,360
it's a fair assumption to assume that

783
00:28:39,510 --> 00:28:37,279
the person you would meet would not be

784
00:28:40,549 --> 00:28:39,520
very different from you because we share

785
00:28:43,669 --> 00:28:40,559
a common

786
00:28:46,710 --> 00:28:43,679
genetic heritage you know all humans

787
00:28:48,149 --> 00:28:46,720
but when you meet life from another

788
00:28:52,070 --> 00:28:48,159
place that had nothing

789
00:28:53,990 --> 00:28:52,080
in common with us you know it could be

790
00:28:56,789 --> 00:28:54,000
very different and the technologies

791
00:28:59,990 --> 00:28:56,799
could be much more advanced than ours

792
00:29:03,510 --> 00:29:00,000
that they would look like magic for us

793
00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:03,520
uh but the lesson from is

794
00:29:06,630 --> 00:29:05,760
similar to what i experienced when i go

795
00:29:08,789 --> 00:29:06,640
on vacation

796
00:29:11,029 --> 00:29:08,799
on a beach you know most of the time i

797
00:29:12,870 --> 00:29:11,039
see seashells that

798
00:29:14,310 --> 00:29:12,880
were swept ashore and each of them looks

799
00:29:15,269 --> 00:29:14,320
different and they were naturally

800
00:29:17,590 --> 00:29:15,279
produced

801
00:29:19,110 --> 00:29:17,600
but every now and then i stumble across

802
00:29:20,870 --> 00:29:19,120
a plastic bottle

803
00:29:23,110 --> 00:29:20,880
that implies that there is a

804
00:29:26,389 --> 00:29:23,120
civilization out there that produced it

805
00:29:29,190 --> 00:29:26,399
it's an artificially made object and

806
00:29:31,110 --> 00:29:29,200
my point is rather than just looking for

807
00:29:34,549 --> 00:29:31,120
radio signals from space

808
00:29:36,789 --> 00:29:34,559
we might check objects that come to us

809
00:29:38,630 --> 00:29:36,799
from outside the solar system

810
00:29:40,470 --> 00:29:38,640
and perhaps we'll find a message in a

811
00:29:45,110 --> 00:29:40,480
bottle so

812
00:29:48,070 --> 00:29:45,120
the search for um other civilizations

813
00:29:49,029 --> 00:29:48,080
could go in many different directions

814
00:29:53,269 --> 00:29:49,039
it's possible

815
00:29:57,269 --> 00:29:53,279
that many of those civilizations that

816
00:29:58,470 --> 00:29:57,279
existed are not around anymore that they

817
00:29:59,909 --> 00:29:58,480
are dead by now

818
00:30:03,350 --> 00:29:59,919
but that doesn't mean that we cannot

819
00:30:05,830 --> 00:30:03,360
find evidence for their existence

820
00:30:07,029 --> 00:30:05,840
we could search just as we do

821
00:30:09,190 --> 00:30:07,039
archaeology

822
00:30:10,789 --> 00:30:09,200
where we dig into the ground and find

823
00:30:12,310 --> 00:30:10,799
evidence for

824
00:30:14,549 --> 00:30:12,320
civilizations that are not around

825
00:30:16,870 --> 00:30:14,559
anymore uh we can do

826
00:30:17,830 --> 00:30:16,880
the same thing in space uh you know

827
00:30:21,350 --> 00:30:17,840
finding

828
00:30:23,190 --> 00:30:21,360
planets with burnt up surfaces that

829
00:30:25,269 --> 00:30:23,200
where the civilization did not take good

830
00:30:28,549 --> 00:30:25,279
care of of its climate or

831
00:30:30,710 --> 00:30:28,559
or went into a nuclear war or so we can

832
00:30:32,070 --> 00:30:30,720
find artifacts that are left behind

833
00:30:34,070 --> 00:30:32,080
we can find evidence for dead

834
00:30:35,830 --> 00:30:34,080
civilizations as well and

835
00:30:37,830 --> 00:30:35,840
and that would teach us an important

836
00:30:40,549 --> 00:30:37,840
lesson to behave better

837
00:30:41,830 --> 00:30:40,559
so that we will not share the same fate

838
00:30:44,710 --> 00:30:41,840
all together i think

839
00:30:46,310 --> 00:30:44,720
we can learn from the sky okay if we see

840
00:30:48,549 --> 00:30:46,320
evidence for other

841
00:30:49,750 --> 00:30:48,559
civilizations out there we can learn

842
00:30:51,590 --> 00:30:49,760
from them uh

843
00:30:53,510 --> 00:30:51,600
if we see a technology that we can

844
00:30:56,549 --> 00:30:53,520
import to earth

845
00:30:59,509 --> 00:30:56,559
it it would be huge you know and

846
00:31:01,190 --> 00:30:59,519
it could be very uh profitable you know

847
00:31:02,789 --> 00:31:01,200
instead of going to wall street or the

848
00:31:04,710 --> 00:31:02,799
silicon valley if you learn something

849
00:31:06,789 --> 00:31:04,720
from the sky looking at the sky

850
00:31:08,389 --> 00:31:06,799
you can make a lot of money out of that

851
00:31:12,470 --> 00:31:08,399
right and i think you know

852
00:31:15,669 --> 00:31:12,480
the technology that we see displayed by

853
00:31:19,350 --> 00:31:15,679
uh i'm talking about those who

854
00:31:21,350 --> 00:31:19,360
who claim to have seen unidentified

855
00:31:23,990 --> 00:31:21,360
aerial phenomena here on earth

856
00:31:25,590 --> 00:31:24,000
the technology being displayed by these

857
00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:25,600
craft or these

858
00:31:30,389 --> 00:31:28,240
anomalies or phenomena if we could

859
00:31:32,710 --> 00:31:30,399
harness that technology like you said i

860
00:31:34,789 --> 00:31:32,720
can only imagine how it could benefit

861
00:31:35,909 --> 00:31:34,799
humanity instead of being weaponized

862
00:31:39,750 --> 00:31:35,919
instead of being

863
00:31:41,190 --> 00:31:39,760
uh you know used for for bad or for

864
00:31:43,590 --> 00:31:41,200
destruction like you said

865
00:31:45,190 --> 00:31:43,600
a fake that we might have someday that

866
00:31:48,470 --> 00:31:45,200
another civilization had

867
00:31:54,789 --> 00:31:50,950
yes i should add to what you just said

868
00:31:57,110 --> 00:31:54,799
um i i participated in a debate about

869
00:31:57,990 --> 00:31:57,120
uh just a month and a half ago about the

870
00:32:00,710 --> 00:31:58,000
question of

871
00:32:02,070 --> 00:32:00,720
whether the space race between the us

872
00:32:05,430 --> 00:32:02,080
and china

873
00:32:08,630 --> 00:32:05,440
is uh good for humanity and

874
00:32:10,149 --> 00:32:08,640
all of the debaters uh were focusing on

875
00:32:12,070 --> 00:32:10,159
the military threat

876
00:32:13,590 --> 00:32:12,080
from space so if there is this race

877
00:32:15,750 --> 00:32:13,600
between china and the us

878
00:32:17,190 --> 00:32:15,760
you know it brings the risk to national

879
00:32:18,630 --> 00:32:17,200
security and so forth

880
00:32:20,710 --> 00:32:18,640
and i just couldn't understand it

881
00:32:22,310 --> 00:32:20,720
because space is all about going away

882
00:32:22,710 --> 00:32:22,320
from earth in the third dimension you

883
00:32:25,029 --> 00:32:22,720
know

884
00:32:26,789 --> 00:32:25,039
uh you don't just hover above the

885
00:32:28,789 --> 00:32:26,799
surface of the earth that's not

886
00:32:30,389 --> 00:32:28,799
where most of the space is it's very far

887
00:32:32,630 --> 00:32:30,399
away it's going to mars

888
00:32:33,750 --> 00:32:32,640
it's going to another star and there is

889
00:32:36,389 --> 00:32:33,760
no military risk

890
00:32:37,990 --> 00:32:36,399
from that if you go very far from earth

891
00:32:38,710 --> 00:32:38,000
you're not risking what's going on on

892
00:32:42,070 --> 00:32:38,720
earth

893
00:32:44,230 --> 00:32:42,080
and then to me it was very narrow minded

894
00:32:45,509 --> 00:32:44,240
the view to think about space as a

895
00:32:47,269 --> 00:32:45,519
military threat

896
00:32:49,190 --> 00:32:47,279
you know it's actually it's the one

897
00:32:51,590 --> 00:32:49,200
thing that can unify

898
00:32:52,789 --> 00:32:51,600
us you know we can have an ambition

899
00:32:56,549 --> 00:32:52,799
going to space

900
00:32:59,350 --> 00:32:56,559
um that will benefit the global economy

901
00:33:01,990 --> 00:32:59,360
so rather than fighting among each other

902
00:33:04,950 --> 00:33:02,000
space i think could be a unifier

903
00:33:06,710 --> 00:33:04,960
right and that kind of connects to uh my

904
00:33:10,470 --> 00:33:06,720
last question here in terms

905
00:33:15,590 --> 00:33:13,509
and what these are possible artificial

906
00:33:16,710 --> 00:33:15,600
objects could be coming into our solar

907
00:33:19,350 --> 00:33:16,720
system is

908
00:33:21,029 --> 00:33:19,360
techno signatures avi i know you've um

909
00:33:21,909 --> 00:33:21,039
you've done heavy research on this in

910
00:33:25,029 --> 00:33:21,919
the past

911
00:33:27,350 --> 00:33:25,039
as well um we covered this on a website

912
00:33:29,190 --> 00:33:27,360
i worked for called the debrief recently

913
00:33:31,750 --> 00:33:29,200
as well uh scientists

914
00:33:32,230 --> 00:33:31,760
members of seti now working in this

915
00:33:35,029 --> 00:33:32,240
field

916
00:33:36,870 --> 00:33:35,039
of techno signatures so for any of our

917
00:33:37,350 --> 00:33:36,880
audience who might not be familiar with

918
00:33:39,269 --> 00:33:37,360
what this

919
00:33:40,789 --> 00:33:39,279
is could you maybe give us kind of the

920
00:33:43,750 --> 00:33:40,799
clip notes version of

921
00:33:45,750 --> 00:33:43,760
what techno signatures is and uh i guess

922
00:33:48,470 --> 00:33:45,760
how it could benefit our search for

923
00:33:49,750 --> 00:33:48,480
extraterrestrial intelligence yeah so

924
00:33:51,909 --> 00:33:49,760
let me

925
00:33:52,870 --> 00:33:51,919
give you an example that will illustrate

926
00:33:56,149 --> 00:33:52,880
the point

927
00:33:58,149 --> 00:33:56,159
uh astronomers are willing to

928
00:34:00,230 --> 00:33:58,159
invest hundreds of millions of dollars

929
00:34:04,310 --> 00:34:00,240
or even billions of dollars

930
00:34:08,149 --> 00:34:04,320
in the next generation of telescopes

931
00:34:10,950 --> 00:34:08,159
that would search for oxygen

932
00:34:12,389 --> 00:34:10,960
in the atmospheres of planets around

933
00:34:17,270 --> 00:34:12,399
other stars

934
00:34:20,950 --> 00:34:19,589
produces oxygen that's a signature of

935
00:34:24,230 --> 00:34:20,960
life

936
00:34:27,190 --> 00:34:24,240
the problem with that argument is that

937
00:34:27,990 --> 00:34:27,200
in the first two billion years of earth

938
00:34:30,950 --> 00:34:28,000
roughly

939
00:34:33,669 --> 00:34:30,960
half of its half of the life of of the

940
00:34:37,750 --> 00:34:36,550
was spent with the atmosphere having

941
00:34:39,349 --> 00:34:37,760
very little oxygen

942
00:34:41,750 --> 00:34:39,359
in it even though there was life on

943
00:34:43,430 --> 00:34:41,760
earth in the first two billion years

944
00:34:45,990 --> 00:34:43,440
the level of oxygen in the atmosphere

945
00:34:47,349 --> 00:34:46,000
was very low so you can have live

946
00:34:49,589 --> 00:34:47,359
microbial life

947
00:34:50,389 --> 00:34:49,599
on a planet without oxygen in the

948
00:34:53,270 --> 00:34:50,399
atmosphere

949
00:34:53,990 --> 00:34:53,280
we know it from earth another point is

950
00:34:56,710 --> 00:34:54,000
that you can make

951
00:34:57,589 --> 00:34:56,720
oxygen by natural processes you can

952
00:35:00,790 --> 00:34:57,599
break

953
00:35:01,589 --> 00:35:00,800
water molecules and make oxygen so it

954
00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:01,599
wouldn't be

955
00:35:06,150 --> 00:35:04,480
really conclusive but does the

956
00:35:07,430 --> 00:35:06,160
mainstream of astronomy is willing to

957
00:35:10,550 --> 00:35:07,440
invest a huge

958
00:35:14,470 --> 00:35:10,560
sum of money pursuing that signature

959
00:35:16,550 --> 00:35:14,480
my point is simple there is actually

960
00:35:18,470 --> 00:35:16,560
the same instruments can actually detect

961
00:35:19,349 --> 00:35:18,480
something that will tell you beyond any

962
00:35:22,790 --> 00:35:19,359
doubt

963
00:35:25,750 --> 00:35:22,800
that there is life if they detect

964
00:35:27,270 --> 00:35:25,760
cfcs these are molecules that indicate

965
00:35:29,190 --> 00:35:27,280
industrial pollution

966
00:35:30,470 --> 00:35:29,200
that we for example produce here on

967
00:35:33,710 --> 00:35:30,480
earth

968
00:35:38,230 --> 00:35:33,720
these cfcs are molecules produced by

969
00:35:42,310 --> 00:35:38,240
refrigerating systems by industries

970
00:35:44,550 --> 00:35:42,320
that deplete the ozone layer on earth

971
00:35:47,349 --> 00:35:44,560
this industrial pollution can be looked

972
00:35:49,190 --> 00:35:47,359
for by the same telescopes

973
00:35:51,349 --> 00:35:49,200
yet the mainstream of the astronomy

974
00:35:53,589 --> 00:35:51,359
community is not discussing them at

975
00:35:55,109 --> 00:35:53,599
all so i wrote a paper about five years

976
00:35:57,829 --> 00:35:55,119
ago talking about

977
00:35:58,630 --> 00:35:57,839
searching for industrial pollution what

978
00:36:00,550 --> 00:35:58,640
is the pro i mean

979
00:36:02,550 --> 00:36:00,560
we are using the same instruments we

980
00:36:05,109 --> 00:36:02,560
just have to open our mind

981
00:36:05,750 --> 00:36:05,119
to the possibility that industrial

982
00:36:08,870 --> 00:36:05,760
pollution

983
00:36:11,589 --> 00:36:08,880
exists on exoplanets and

984
00:36:13,030 --> 00:36:11,599
once we do that if we detect it that

985
00:36:15,510 --> 00:36:13,040
would be

986
00:36:16,230 --> 00:36:15,520
beyond any doubt an indication for life

987
00:36:18,950 --> 00:36:16,240
because

988
00:36:21,670 --> 00:36:18,960
such molecules are so complex that they

989
00:36:23,589 --> 00:36:21,680
cannot be produced by natural processes

990
00:36:25,670 --> 00:36:23,599
so here is an example of a techno

991
00:36:29,109 --> 00:36:25,680
signature a signature that is

992
00:36:30,069 --> 00:36:29,119
a marker of technology that would

993
00:36:32,630 --> 00:36:30,079
indicate

994
00:36:34,069 --> 00:36:32,640
that an industrial civilization exists

995
00:36:36,870 --> 00:36:34,079
on a planet

996
00:36:37,589 --> 00:36:36,880
that's one example you can think of for

997
00:36:40,870 --> 00:36:37,599
example

998
00:36:44,150 --> 00:36:40,880
uh seeing evidence for photovoltaic

999
00:36:46,790 --> 00:36:44,160
cells on the surface of a planet or

1000
00:36:47,750 --> 00:36:46,800
artificial illumination of the surface

1001
00:36:51,430 --> 00:36:47,760
of a planet

1002
00:36:52,230 --> 00:36:51,440
both subjects on which i i wrote the

1003
00:36:54,470 --> 00:36:52,240
papers

1004
00:36:55,750 --> 00:36:54,480
uh you can think of megastructures

1005
00:36:58,550 --> 00:36:55,760
things that are big

1006
00:36:59,430 --> 00:36:58,560
that do not look like planets you can

1007
00:37:02,790 --> 00:36:59,440
think about the

1008
00:37:05,030 --> 00:37:02,800
satellites orbiting a planet uh

1009
00:37:06,470 --> 00:37:05,040
you know for example spacex is planning

1010
00:37:08,390 --> 00:37:06,480
to launch

1011
00:37:09,670 --> 00:37:08,400
tens of thousands of communication

1012
00:37:12,470 --> 00:37:09,680
satellites

1013
00:37:13,349 --> 00:37:12,480
in the next few years and uh you can

1014
00:37:15,109 --> 00:37:13,359
imagine that

1015
00:37:16,630 --> 00:37:15,119
in the distant future there would be

1016
00:37:18,550 --> 00:37:16,640
even more and

1017
00:37:21,349 --> 00:37:18,560
the question is can we detect evidence

1018
00:37:22,710 --> 00:37:21,359
for so many a swarm of satellites around

1019
00:37:25,109 --> 00:37:22,720
the planet

1020
00:37:26,230 --> 00:37:25,119
so all of these are technological

1021
00:37:28,550 --> 00:37:26,240
signatures that

1022
00:37:30,230 --> 00:37:28,560
you know we can search for if we only

1023
00:37:32,390 --> 00:37:30,240
open our mind

1024
00:37:33,750 --> 00:37:32,400
and the problem is really when you're

1025
00:37:36,390 --> 00:37:33,760
not open-minded

1026
00:37:38,470 --> 00:37:36,400
to find wonderful things things that you

1027
00:37:41,670 --> 00:37:38,480
don't expect necessarily

1028
00:37:42,870 --> 00:37:41,680
you will never discover them so it's a

1029
00:37:44,630 --> 00:37:42,880
catch

1030
00:37:45,910 --> 00:37:44,640
if the mainstream of the astronomy

1031
00:37:48,630 --> 00:37:45,920
community

1032
00:37:51,109 --> 00:37:48,640
is bullying and dismissing even a

1033
00:37:53,430 --> 00:37:51,119
discussion on the possibility that um

1034
00:37:54,950 --> 00:37:53,440
was artificial or that there are these

1035
00:37:57,589 --> 00:37:54,960
civilizations out there

1036
00:37:59,190 --> 00:37:57,599
if they say it's never aliens like the

1037
00:38:01,109 --> 00:37:59,200
if you go to twitter you'll find it a

1038
00:38:04,230 --> 00:38:01,119
lot of times being said

1039
00:38:06,390 --> 00:38:04,240
it's never don't talk about it and they

1040
00:38:07,910 --> 00:38:06,400
you know a lot of people ridicule anyone

1041
00:38:09,829 --> 00:38:07,920
that discusses this

1042
00:38:11,510 --> 00:38:09,839
then of course young people will worry

1043
00:38:13,190 --> 00:38:11,520
about their job prospects they will

1044
00:38:16,230 --> 00:38:13,200
never enter this field

1045
00:38:19,510 --> 00:38:16,240
you will never have fresh talent

1046
00:38:21,109 --> 00:38:19,520
working on these subjects and it will

1047
00:38:24,390 --> 00:38:21,119
never be funded

1048
00:38:27,430 --> 00:38:24,400
so it's a self-fulfilling prophecy you

1049
00:38:29,030 --> 00:38:27,440
you know all these no sayers they will

1050
00:38:30,630 --> 00:38:29,040
look at it and say oh look there is

1051
00:38:32,470 --> 00:38:30,640
nothing being found of course there is

1052
00:38:34,470 --> 00:38:32,480
nothing being found if you don't fund

1053
00:38:36,230 --> 00:38:34,480
the search and if you don't allow young

1054
00:38:39,750 --> 00:38:36,240
people to get into it because

1055
00:38:40,630 --> 00:38:39,760
of the uh intellectual climate that

1056
00:38:43,589 --> 00:38:40,640
suppresses

1057
00:38:45,349 --> 00:38:43,599
it then there will never be progress

1058
00:38:46,230 --> 00:38:45,359
it's just like burying your head in the

1059
00:38:48,390 --> 00:38:46,240
sand

1060
00:38:50,470 --> 00:38:48,400
and my point is that the public is

1061
00:38:53,430 --> 00:38:50,480
extremely interested in this question

1062
00:38:54,870 --> 00:38:53,440
the public is funding science how dare

1063
00:38:56,790 --> 00:38:54,880
the scientists say

1064
00:38:59,030 --> 00:38:56,800
we have the technology to search for

1065
00:39:02,310 --> 00:38:59,040
such things but we don't want to discuss

1066
00:39:04,950 --> 00:39:02,320
it i think it's completely inappropriate

1067
00:39:06,550 --> 00:39:04,960
if the public is interested and the

1068
00:39:07,829 --> 00:39:06,560
science community can address this

1069
00:39:10,870 --> 00:39:07,839
subject

1070
00:39:14,550 --> 00:39:10,880
it should be mainstream and then when

1071
00:39:17,829 --> 00:39:14,560
you look at the theoretical physics

1072
00:39:19,990 --> 00:39:17,839
right now a huge community of very

1073
00:39:23,270 --> 00:39:20,000
talented young people

1074
00:39:25,589 --> 00:39:23,280
work on concepts that have no

1075
00:39:26,630 --> 00:39:25,599
connection to reality no experimental

1076
00:39:29,670 --> 00:39:26,640
verification

1077
00:39:31,589 --> 00:39:29,680
they work on extra dimensions they work

1078
00:39:33,670 --> 00:39:31,599
on string theory

1079
00:39:35,349 --> 00:39:33,680
and you know many popularizers of

1080
00:39:37,190 --> 00:39:35,359
science talk about

1081
00:39:39,109 --> 00:39:37,200
you know the frontier of physics is

1082
00:39:40,630 --> 00:39:39,119
extra dimensions the frontier of physics

1083
00:39:42,390 --> 00:39:40,640
is string theory

1084
00:39:45,190 --> 00:39:42,400
but these are concepts for which there

1085
00:39:47,670 --> 00:39:45,200
is no experimental evidence

1086
00:39:49,510 --> 00:39:47,680
and they have been working on these for

1087
00:39:51,349 --> 00:39:49,520
several decades

1088
00:39:52,790 --> 00:39:51,359
and my point is if that is the

1089
00:39:54,870 --> 00:39:52,800
mainstream for which

1090
00:39:56,310 --> 00:39:54,880
awards are given for which you can get a

1091
00:39:58,230 --> 00:39:56,320
job

1092
00:39:59,349 --> 00:39:58,240
then something is distorted in the cut

1093
00:40:02,230 --> 00:39:59,359
scientific culture

1094
00:40:02,710 --> 00:40:02,240
because there is a significant component

1095
00:40:04,550 --> 00:40:02,720
of

1096
00:40:05,910 --> 00:40:04,560
the theoretical physics community

1097
00:40:07,270 --> 00:40:05,920
working on things

1098
00:40:09,750 --> 00:40:07,280
that the public doesn't really

1099
00:40:13,510 --> 00:40:09,760
understand that have no connection to

1100
00:40:16,550 --> 00:40:13,520
reality because they were never tested

1101
00:40:18,870 --> 00:40:16,560
whereas the same mainstream community is

1102
00:40:19,829 --> 00:40:18,880
dismissing a subject that is of interest

1103
00:40:22,790 --> 00:40:19,839
to the public

1104
00:40:23,829 --> 00:40:22,800
and on which we can get data so how can

1105
00:40:25,750 --> 00:40:23,839
you have both things

1106
00:40:27,750 --> 00:40:25,760
at the same time that makes no sense

1107
00:40:31,030 --> 00:40:27,760
something is unhealthy

1108
00:40:31,670 --> 00:40:31,040
in the current culture of theoretical

1109
00:40:35,109 --> 00:40:31,680
physics

1110
00:40:38,150 --> 00:40:35,119
and you know i am just

1111
00:40:38,950 --> 00:40:38,160
straightforward in that i'm saying these

1112
00:40:43,030 --> 00:40:38,960
things

1113
00:40:45,030 --> 00:40:43,040
based on what i see and

1114
00:40:46,630 --> 00:40:45,040
of course that will not be a popular

1115
00:40:48,470 --> 00:40:46,640
view because all these people that work

1116
00:40:51,589 --> 00:40:48,480
on these things will

1117
00:40:53,829 --> 00:40:51,599
you know push back

1118
00:40:54,950 --> 00:40:53,839
but but that's the truth if you ask

1119
00:40:56,710 --> 00:40:54,960
people practitioners

1120
00:40:58,309 --> 00:40:56,720
they will tell you that's the reality of

1121
00:40:59,990 --> 00:40:58,319
the of the situation and

1122
00:41:01,430 --> 00:41:00,000
and this is unfortunate especially for

1123
00:41:03,510 --> 00:41:01,440
young people because

1124
00:41:05,190 --> 00:41:03,520
you want young people to be independent

1125
00:41:06,150 --> 00:41:05,200
to think about things for which you can

1126
00:41:08,550 --> 00:41:06,160
get data

1127
00:41:09,910 --> 00:41:08,560
and to be excited about it so that we

1128
00:41:12,550 --> 00:41:09,920
can make progress you know

1129
00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:12,560
quantum mechanics and a central pillar

1130
00:41:16,069 --> 00:41:13,520
of physics

1131
00:41:17,589 --> 00:41:16,079
was never imagined until experiments

1132
00:41:20,710 --> 00:41:17,599
told us that it exists

1133
00:41:21,589 --> 00:41:20,720
so what how can we think that we will

1134
00:41:25,030 --> 00:41:21,599
come up with

1135
00:41:26,870 --> 00:41:25,040
the correct notion of nature just by

1136
00:41:28,390 --> 00:41:26,880
you know sitting in our offices without

1137
00:41:30,309 --> 00:41:28,400
any experimental feedback

1138
00:41:32,230 --> 00:41:30,319
you know physics is a dialogue with

1139
00:41:33,430 --> 00:41:32,240
nature you have to listen to nature you

1140
00:41:35,270 --> 00:41:33,440
have to see

1141
00:41:37,510 --> 00:41:35,280
what nature tells you it's a learning

1142
00:41:39,430 --> 00:41:37,520
experience many times you're wrong

1143
00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:39,440
so without this feedback if you make it

1144
00:41:41,990 --> 00:41:41,520
a monologue where you say what you think

1145
00:41:44,069 --> 00:41:42,000
nature

1146
00:41:46,230 --> 00:41:44,079
is then it's not different from the

1147
00:41:47,910 --> 00:41:46,240
philosophers that told galileo

1148
00:41:49,349 --> 00:41:47,920
we know that the sun moves around the

1149
00:41:52,150 --> 00:41:49,359
earth

1150
00:41:54,550 --> 00:41:52,160
exactly yeah well i mean i can hear the

1151
00:41:57,109 --> 00:41:54,560
excitement in your voice alvi which is

1152
00:41:57,750 --> 00:41:57,119
inspiring i know there are several uh

1153
00:42:00,069 --> 00:41:57,760
aspiring

1154
00:42:01,990 --> 00:42:00,079
astronomers that listen to the show and

1155
00:42:02,790 --> 00:42:02,000
were really excited that i was having

1156
00:42:05,750 --> 00:42:02,800
you on

1157
00:42:06,710 --> 00:42:05,760
because i think they share that same uh

1158
00:42:09,030 --> 00:42:06,720
wonder

1159
00:42:09,750 --> 00:42:09,040
as you do of why you got involved with

1160
00:42:11,750 --> 00:42:09,760
this

1161
00:42:13,030 --> 00:42:11,760
and the endless questions that can be

1162
00:42:15,589 --> 00:42:13,040
asked of

1163
00:42:17,349 --> 00:42:15,599
the universe yeah i should tell you in

1164
00:42:19,270 --> 00:42:17,359
this in this context

1165
00:42:20,630 --> 00:42:19,280
that what i do in the context of the

1166
00:42:23,670 --> 00:42:20,640
search for life

1167
00:42:26,550 --> 00:42:23,680
i is no different than what i than the

1168
00:42:27,829 --> 00:42:26,560
approach that i took in the context of

1169
00:42:30,069 --> 00:42:27,839
studying the universe

1170
00:42:31,990 --> 00:42:30,079
for example most of the matter in the

1171
00:42:34,069 --> 00:42:32,000
universe is not known it's called dark

1172
00:42:36,870 --> 00:42:34,079
matter because we don't know what it is

1173
00:42:37,829 --> 00:42:36,880
it's dark there is no interaction with

1174
00:42:39,589 --> 00:42:37,839
light

1175
00:42:41,109 --> 00:42:39,599
and you know there are various

1176
00:42:42,950 --> 00:42:41,119
possibilities for what

1177
00:42:44,950 --> 00:42:42,960
you know the the composition of the dark

1178
00:42:45,589 --> 00:42:44,960
matter is and over the years over the

1179
00:42:47,670 --> 00:42:45,599
decades

1180
00:42:49,030 --> 00:42:47,680
people suggested all kinds of

1181
00:42:51,910 --> 00:42:49,040
possibilities

1182
00:42:53,910 --> 00:42:51,920
and many of them were tested like weakly

1183
00:42:55,670 --> 00:42:53,920
interacting massive particles you know

1184
00:42:56,950 --> 00:42:55,680
there are very tight constraints on the

1185
00:42:59,270 --> 00:42:56,960
properties of these

1186
00:43:00,390 --> 00:42:59,280
particles by now so hundreds of millions

1187
00:43:02,630 --> 00:43:00,400
of dollars were

1188
00:43:04,230 --> 00:43:02,640
spent on experiments that proved that

1189
00:43:05,589 --> 00:43:04,240
the original notion of weakly

1190
00:43:09,190 --> 00:43:05,599
interacting massive particles

1191
00:43:09,829 --> 00:43:09,200
is not correct nobody blames those

1192
00:43:11,430 --> 00:43:09,839
people

1193
00:43:13,270 --> 00:43:11,440
that suggested it because it's part of

1194
00:43:13,910 --> 00:43:13,280
science as i said science is a learning

1195
00:43:15,750 --> 00:43:13,920
experience

1196
00:43:18,230 --> 00:43:15,760
it should be completely natural to

1197
00:43:20,309 --> 00:43:18,240
sometimes have the wrong idea

1198
00:43:22,630 --> 00:43:20,319
test it experimentally and show that

1199
00:43:25,910 --> 00:43:22,640
it's wrong that is part of science

1200
00:43:26,870 --> 00:43:25,920
it's a learning experience but the point

1201
00:43:28,950 --> 00:43:26,880
is that

1202
00:43:30,550 --> 00:43:28,960
moving from that you know and i wrote

1203
00:43:32,470 --> 00:43:30,560
like two years ago a paper

1204
00:43:34,230 --> 00:43:32,480
talking about the dark matter perhaps

1205
00:43:35,270 --> 00:43:34,240
being made of particles that have a

1206
00:43:39,430 --> 00:43:35,280
small electric

1207
00:43:41,589 --> 00:43:39,440
charge i found that a speculative idea

1208
00:43:43,910 --> 00:43:41,599
but there was no complaint about it then

1209
00:43:44,550 --> 00:43:43,920
when i see anomalies of an object in the

1210
00:43:46,069 --> 00:43:44,560
sky

1211
00:43:47,910 --> 00:43:46,079
and i write a paper about these

1212
00:43:48,470 --> 00:43:47,920
anomalies and try to explain them with

1213
00:43:50,630 --> 00:43:48,480
one

1214
00:43:52,069 --> 00:43:50,640
possible explanation i don't see that

1215
00:43:53,589 --> 00:43:52,079
any different than saying the dark

1216
00:43:55,349 --> 00:43:53,599
matter is made of

1217
00:43:57,589 --> 00:43:55,359
particles that are electrically charged

1218
00:43:59,430 --> 00:43:57,599
you know it's just a hypothesis that you

1219
00:44:02,069 --> 00:43:59,440
can test with getting more evidence

1220
00:44:05,030 --> 00:44:02,079
what's the problem then i get a backlash

1221
00:44:06,950 --> 00:44:05,040
of people saying how dare you discuss it

1222
00:44:09,589 --> 00:44:06,960
now the only reason that i appear in the

1223
00:44:10,230 --> 00:44:09,599
media it's unusual you know i get a lot

1224
00:44:13,910 --> 00:44:10,240
of

1225
00:44:14,710 --> 00:44:13,920
media attention you know it's because my

1226
00:44:17,670 --> 00:44:14,720
colleagues

1227
00:44:19,589 --> 00:44:17,680
are not sharing my behavior you know if

1228
00:44:23,190 --> 00:44:19,599
everyone was open-minded

1229
00:44:25,829 --> 00:44:23,200
and if we were to discuss an artificial

1230
00:44:27,829 --> 00:44:25,839
explanation for um naturally just you

1231
00:44:28,390 --> 00:44:27,839
know one of the possibilities no problem

1232
00:44:29,910 --> 00:44:28,400
what

1233
00:44:31,990 --> 00:44:29,920
you know then it would be just like

1234
00:44:33,270 --> 00:44:32,000
discussing various possibilities for the

1235
00:44:35,030 --> 00:44:33,280
dark matter

1236
00:44:36,150 --> 00:44:35,040
so that the media would not pay too much

1237
00:44:38,069 --> 00:44:36,160
attention you know there is this

1238
00:44:40,069 --> 00:44:38,079
possibility another possibility fine

1239
00:44:41,349 --> 00:44:40,079
it's part of science we rule out we get

1240
00:44:43,109 --> 00:44:41,359
more evidence on other

1241
00:44:45,109 --> 00:44:43,119
you know we will collect more data on

1242
00:44:48,390 --> 00:44:45,119
other objects like um

1243
00:44:50,309 --> 00:44:48,400
we move on but the fact that there is

1244
00:44:53,270 --> 00:44:50,319
this pushback makes me

1245
00:44:54,309 --> 00:44:53,280
unique and that's why i appear on your

1246
00:44:57,349 --> 00:44:54,319
show

1247
00:44:59,750 --> 00:44:57,359
and frankly i don't understand why i

1248
00:45:01,270 --> 00:44:59,760
should be unique but the way i view it

1249
00:45:02,550 --> 00:45:01,280
you know as i mentioned i i was in the

1250
00:45:05,589 --> 00:45:02,560
military

1251
00:45:07,270 --> 00:45:05,599
uh early on and you know when you go

1252
00:45:09,589 --> 00:45:07,280
into combat

1253
00:45:10,710 --> 00:45:09,599
they often say that you know one soldier

1254
00:45:13,990 --> 00:45:10,720
has to put

1255
00:45:15,510 --> 00:45:14,000
his body on the barbed wire so that

1256
00:45:18,790 --> 00:45:15,520
other soldiers can

1257
00:45:20,150 --> 00:45:18,800
go across that and then you know even

1258
00:45:22,630 --> 00:45:20,160
though it's painful for me

1259
00:45:23,990 --> 00:45:22,640
to see the reaction of some people and

1260
00:45:24,309 --> 00:45:24,000
by the way most of these people that

1261
00:45:27,270 --> 00:45:24,319
make

1262
00:45:29,109 --> 00:45:27,280
nasty remarks are not particularly good

1263
00:45:31,750 --> 00:45:29,119
scientists

1264
00:45:33,190 --> 00:45:31,760
and i'm not really offended by those

1265
00:45:34,630 --> 00:45:33,200
because i know that they are not really

1266
00:45:36,069 --> 00:45:34,640
good scientists and that's why they make

1267
00:45:36,790 --> 00:45:36,079
the remark because they don't really

1268
00:45:39,349 --> 00:45:36,800
understand

1269
00:45:40,230 --> 00:45:39,359
the subtlety of the of the anomalies you

1270
00:45:41,829 --> 00:45:40,240
know

1271
00:45:44,230 --> 00:45:41,839
any event it's a painful experience

1272
00:45:45,349 --> 00:45:44,240
sometimes and i just feel you know i'm

1273
00:45:47,270 --> 00:45:45,359
putting my body

1274
00:45:48,790 --> 00:45:47,280
on the barbed wire so that the younger

1275
00:45:50,710 --> 00:45:48,800
generation of tomorrow

1276
00:45:53,109 --> 00:45:50,720
will be able to explore this subject

1277
00:45:55,589 --> 00:45:53,119
freely that that's my thinking

1278
00:45:57,190 --> 00:45:55,599
i love that a trial blazer through and

1279
00:45:58,069 --> 00:45:57,200
through man i mean that that makes

1280
00:46:00,069 --> 00:45:58,079
perfect sense

1281
00:46:01,589 --> 00:46:00,079
and like i said there are young people

1282
00:46:04,150 --> 00:46:01,599
that are going to watch this

1283
00:46:06,150 --> 00:46:04,160
and listen who i think appreciate and

1284
00:46:09,270 --> 00:46:06,160
respect that work that you're doing

1285
00:46:10,870 --> 00:46:09,280
uh to build off of that as they progress

1286
00:46:13,270 --> 00:46:10,880
in their own understanding

1287
00:46:14,550 --> 00:46:13,280
of the universe and fighting back

1288
00:46:16,870 --> 00:46:14,560
against the norm

1289
00:46:17,589 --> 00:46:16,880
when it comes to mainstream science but

1290
00:46:20,150 --> 00:46:17,599
um

1291
00:46:21,750 --> 00:46:20,160
i would love just to say that's the

1292
00:46:25,510 --> 00:46:21,760
second message of my book

1293
00:46:27,670 --> 00:46:25,520
the first message has to do with um

1294
00:46:29,430 --> 00:46:27,680
in potential potentially artificial but

1295
00:46:31,190 --> 00:46:29,440
but the second is what i learned in that

1296
00:46:33,430 --> 00:46:31,200
process of exploring it

1297
00:46:36,550 --> 00:46:33,440
about the scientific community which is

1298
00:46:40,390 --> 00:46:36,560
a rather unhealthy situation right now

1299
00:46:42,950 --> 00:46:40,400
and i very much hope we will change

1300
00:46:44,390 --> 00:46:42,960
me too it's become very stigmatic and i

1301
00:46:47,270 --> 00:46:44,400
think dogmatic

1302
00:46:48,470 --> 00:46:47,280
as well and again i think that's why you

1303
00:46:50,790 --> 00:46:48,480
shaking things up

1304
00:46:53,109 --> 00:46:50,800
is so refreshing not just for people who

1305
00:46:55,670 --> 00:46:53,119
believe in ufos that's a whole

1306
00:46:56,150 --> 00:46:55,680
different conversation to be had but for

1307
00:46:59,430 --> 00:46:56,160
people

1308
00:47:02,790 --> 00:46:59,440
who want that

1309
00:47:04,790 --> 00:47:02,800
wonder and that uh amazing

1310
00:47:05,910 --> 00:47:04,800
possibility of there being something

1311
00:47:08,870 --> 00:47:05,920
else out there

1312
00:47:09,750 --> 00:47:08,880
either we are completely alone in the

1313
00:47:12,790 --> 00:47:09,760
universe

1314
00:47:15,510 --> 00:47:12,800
or or were not and uh both

1315
00:47:17,109 --> 00:47:15,520
answers are equally as terrifying if you

1316
00:47:19,750 --> 00:47:17,119
if you really look at it so i

1317
00:47:21,430 --> 00:47:19,760
i do i do hope and i hold out that hope

1318
00:47:24,150 --> 00:47:21,440
with people like you

1319
00:47:25,670 --> 00:47:24,160
blazing those trails and um i do have a

1320
00:47:27,910 --> 00:47:25,680
few listener questions here

1321
00:47:29,589 --> 00:47:27,920
oh if you're willing to stick around i'd

1322
00:47:30,390 --> 00:47:29,599
love to ask you some of these yeah go

1323
00:47:32,549 --> 00:47:30,400
ahead

1324
00:47:33,829 --> 00:47:32,559
any question you want absolutely thank

1325
00:47:37,270 --> 00:47:33,839
you thank you um

1326
00:47:38,470 --> 00:47:37,280
let's see you mentioned the the pancake

1327
00:47:41,270 --> 00:47:38,480
shape of a

1328
00:47:42,230 --> 00:47:41,280
lua now this question comes from ian and

1329
00:47:45,430 --> 00:47:42,240
um

1330
00:47:47,910 --> 00:47:45,440
he wants to know uh how did

1331
00:47:49,349 --> 00:47:47,920
scientists make this analysis and i

1332
00:47:50,549 --> 00:47:49,359
guess kind of building off of that

1333
00:47:53,750 --> 00:47:50,559
question

1334
00:47:54,470 --> 00:47:53,760
why didn't we have any images taken from

1335
00:47:57,589 --> 00:47:54,480
this whether

1336
00:47:58,790 --> 00:47:57,599
through wavelengths uh radio frequencies

1337
00:48:00,390 --> 00:47:58,800
infrared um

1338
00:48:01,829 --> 00:48:00,400
yeah can you maybe clarify some of the

1339
00:48:03,670 --> 00:48:01,839
misconceptions so the

1340
00:48:06,309 --> 00:48:03,680
answer to the second question is is

1341
00:48:08,630 --> 00:48:06,319
easier let me start with that um

1342
00:48:10,710 --> 00:48:08,640
basically the size of the object can be

1343
00:48:12,870 --> 00:48:10,720
inferred based on the amount of sunlight

1344
00:48:14,710 --> 00:48:12,880
that it reflects if you assume something

1345
00:48:18,710 --> 00:48:14,720
about their reflectance

1346
00:48:21,430 --> 00:48:18,720
um and so the sizes of order

1347
00:48:21,910 --> 00:48:21,440
the size of a football field it's 100

1348
00:48:25,190 --> 00:48:21,920
meters

1349
00:48:25,829 --> 00:48:25,200
a few hundred feet and then given that

1350
00:48:28,950 --> 00:48:25,839
size

1351
00:48:31,190 --> 00:48:28,960
and distance you know the distance is

1352
00:48:32,470 --> 00:48:31,200
uh roughly the earth sun separation at

1353
00:48:35,990 --> 00:48:32,480
the time that it was

1354
00:48:37,829 --> 00:48:36,000
detected at that distance the object

1355
00:48:40,950 --> 00:48:37,839
occupies a very small

1356
00:48:44,230 --> 00:48:40,960
angle on the sky that we cannot resolve

1357
00:48:46,710 --> 00:48:44,240
with existing telescopes on earth so

1358
00:48:48,230 --> 00:48:46,720
it's just it looks like a point of light

1359
00:48:51,030 --> 00:48:48,240
you can't really resolve it

1360
00:48:52,390 --> 00:48:51,040
however if we were to discover it on its

1361
00:48:54,390 --> 00:48:52,400
way towards us

1362
00:48:56,309 --> 00:48:54,400
we could have sent a spacecraft that

1363
00:48:58,309 --> 00:48:56,319
would meet it halfway

1364
00:49:00,630 --> 00:48:58,319
and come very close to it so that it's

1365
00:49:01,750 --> 00:49:00,640
big enough in terms of the angle that it

1366
00:49:04,390 --> 00:49:01,760
occupies

1367
00:49:05,030 --> 00:49:04,400
for a camera to take a photograph of it

1368
00:49:06,790 --> 00:49:05,040
so

1369
00:49:08,549 --> 00:49:06,800
you basically need to come close enough

1370
00:49:10,950 --> 00:49:08,559
to the object so that

1371
00:49:12,390 --> 00:49:10,960
it's big enough for the camera to

1372
00:49:15,030 --> 00:49:12,400
resolve it

1373
00:49:17,430 --> 00:49:15,040
but we didn't have that luxury in this

1374
00:49:19,270 --> 00:49:17,440
case so we don't have a photograph

1375
00:49:21,510 --> 00:49:19,280
of it and of course a photograph would

1376
00:49:24,549 --> 00:49:21,520
convince us beyond any doubt

1377
00:49:26,230 --> 00:49:24,559
what the nature of the object is and i

1378
00:49:27,990 --> 00:49:26,240
very much hope that in the future you

1379
00:49:29,030 --> 00:49:28,000
know when we see more objects of this

1380
00:49:31,670 --> 00:49:29,040
type that look

1381
00:49:33,430 --> 00:49:31,680
very peculiar we'll be able to send a

1382
00:49:34,549 --> 00:49:33,440
mission that will take a photograph from

1383
00:49:35,990 --> 00:49:34,559
up close

1384
00:49:37,910 --> 00:49:36,000
so that's the answer to the second

1385
00:49:39,829 --> 00:49:37,920
question the first question

1386
00:49:42,309 --> 00:49:39,839
how do we know that it's pancake shaped

1387
00:49:44,710 --> 00:49:42,319
and not cigar shape

1388
00:49:46,870 --> 00:49:44,720
that's based on a model for the

1389
00:49:50,230 --> 00:49:46,880
reflected light so

1390
00:49:52,230 --> 00:49:50,240
as it was tumbling around uh

1391
00:49:53,349 --> 00:49:52,240
the amount of light that it reflected

1392
00:49:56,470 --> 00:49:53,359
from the sun

1393
00:49:59,030 --> 00:49:56,480
changed and if you try to obtain

1394
00:50:01,030 --> 00:49:59,040
a fit to the change the variation in the

1395
00:50:04,150 --> 00:50:01,040
amount of light that we see

1396
00:50:07,589 --> 00:50:04,160
as a function of time the best fit

1397
00:50:10,069 --> 00:50:07,599
model was what one that had a flat

1398
00:50:12,069 --> 00:50:10,079
shape a pancake like shape if you were

1399
00:50:13,990 --> 00:50:12,079
to take a cigar like shape

1400
00:50:15,750 --> 00:50:14,000
it would not give you as good of a fit

1401
00:50:18,549 --> 00:50:15,760
and the confidence

1402
00:50:20,390 --> 00:50:18,559
that was inferred is 90 so at the 90

1403
00:50:22,230 --> 00:50:20,400
confidence level it was flat

1404
00:50:24,630 --> 00:50:22,240
there was another argument that was

1405
00:50:27,990 --> 00:50:24,640
actually in the original discovery paper

1406
00:50:31,910 --> 00:50:28,000
which had to do with the fact that

1407
00:50:34,630 --> 00:50:31,920
a flat object would be more likely to be

1408
00:50:35,510 --> 00:50:34,640
associated with this with the light

1409
00:50:38,710 --> 00:50:35,520
curve because

1410
00:50:41,190 --> 00:50:38,720
it would represent the largest amount of

1411
00:50:42,790 --> 00:50:41,200
energy that the object gets as it moves

1412
00:50:44,870 --> 00:50:42,800
through interstellar space so if

1413
00:50:46,470 --> 00:50:44,880
there is a tumultuous journey where it

1414
00:50:49,270 --> 00:50:46,480
gets kicked around

1415
00:50:51,270 --> 00:50:49,280
then based on the way that it tumbled

1416
00:50:53,670 --> 00:50:51,280
you can say that it should be

1417
00:50:55,750 --> 00:50:53,680
pancake shape because that represents

1418
00:50:58,309 --> 00:50:55,760
the most likely state

1419
00:50:58,790 --> 00:50:58,319
uh that it would be in given the light

1420
00:51:01,829 --> 00:50:58,800
curve

1421
00:51:04,390 --> 00:51:01,839
that we saw um and if it was cigar

1422
00:51:06,150 --> 00:51:04,400
shaped it would be the minimum energy so

1423
00:51:08,069 --> 00:51:06,160
if it was cigar shape that the light

1424
00:51:10,309 --> 00:51:08,079
curve that we saw would represent

1425
00:51:11,349 --> 00:51:10,319
an object that was barely kicked around

1426
00:51:13,990 --> 00:51:11,359
you know

1427
00:51:14,630 --> 00:51:14,000
so that's a separate argument uh so at

1428
00:51:17,990 --> 00:51:14,640
any event

1429
00:51:19,109 --> 00:51:18,000
we don't know for sure but most likely

1430
00:51:21,829 --> 00:51:19,119
it was not

1431
00:51:23,670 --> 00:51:21,839
the way depicted in those cartoons a

1432
00:51:24,870 --> 00:51:23,680
cigar-shaped object but more like a

1433
00:51:26,710 --> 00:51:24,880
pancake and

1434
00:51:27,910 --> 00:51:26,720
that is more consistent with the light

1435
00:51:30,390 --> 00:51:27,920
sale idea

1436
00:51:31,430 --> 00:51:30,400
so in fact when we wrote our first paper

1437
00:51:34,630 --> 00:51:31,440
with my postdoc

1438
00:51:36,069 --> 00:51:34,640
shmuel bialy the referee of the paper

1439
00:51:37,829 --> 00:51:36,079
and by the way the paper was accepted

1440
00:51:40,870 --> 00:51:37,839
for publication within a few days

1441
00:51:42,870 --> 00:51:40,880
which is the record for me um the

1442
00:51:43,990 --> 00:51:42,880
referee of that paper said and by the

1443
00:51:47,670 --> 00:51:44,000
way

1444
00:51:51,270 --> 00:51:47,680
it seems like a pancake shape is indeed

1445
00:51:55,270 --> 00:51:51,280
more likely based on the light curve so

1446
00:51:56,790 --> 00:51:55,280
so that's another interesting point that

1447
00:51:58,630 --> 00:51:56,800
goes in the direction of the object

1448
00:52:01,109 --> 00:51:58,640
being unusual because

1449
00:52:01,910 --> 00:52:01,119
most of the rocks that we see are not

1450
00:52:06,150 --> 00:52:01,920
really

1451
00:52:08,069 --> 00:52:06,160
flat that see and i'm glad you clarified

1452
00:52:10,630 --> 00:52:08,079
both those for us because i think

1453
00:52:11,510 --> 00:52:10,640
the number one question i got is why why

1454
00:52:14,069 --> 00:52:11,520
didn't we get

1455
00:52:15,109 --> 00:52:14,079
images of this thing and i mean you

1456
00:52:17,270 --> 00:52:15,119
explained it

1457
00:52:18,150 --> 00:52:17,280
plain as day we didn't make it in time

1458
00:52:20,150 --> 00:52:18,160
we didn't have

1459
00:52:21,430 --> 00:52:20,160
enough advanced knowledge and i mean i

1460
00:52:23,349 --> 00:52:21,440
know there's

1461
00:52:24,549 --> 00:52:23,359
even companies out there i believe it's

1462
00:52:26,950 --> 00:52:24,559
riga

1463
00:52:28,230 --> 00:52:26,960
university that i recently researched

1464
00:52:31,349 --> 00:52:28,240
who are

1465
00:52:34,309 --> 00:52:31,359
inventing technology to uh

1466
00:52:35,430 --> 00:52:34,319
to try to deflect asteroids before they

1467
00:52:37,430 --> 00:52:35,440
possibly

1468
00:52:39,190 --> 00:52:37,440
could cause catastrophic events on our

1469
00:52:41,829 --> 00:52:39,200
planet so if we're able to

1470
00:52:42,790 --> 00:52:41,839
know that enough ahead of time and have

1471
00:52:52,069 --> 00:52:42,800
the

1472
00:52:55,030 --> 00:52:52,079
that discovered

1473
00:52:55,990 --> 00:52:55,040
its main purpose is to find these killer

1474
00:53:01,349 --> 00:52:56,000
asteroids

1475
00:53:04,710 --> 00:53:01,359
earth that have a size

1476
00:53:07,270 --> 00:53:04,720
larger than the size of umuah uh

1477
00:53:09,589 --> 00:53:07,280
that if they happen to intercept the

1478
00:53:13,670 --> 00:53:09,599
earth could cause a lot of damage

1479
00:53:15,430 --> 00:53:13,680
and congress about 16 years ago decided

1480
00:53:17,750 --> 00:53:15,440
that astronomers should search for all

1481
00:53:20,710 --> 00:53:17,760
of these dangerous

1482
00:53:23,030 --> 00:53:20,720
rocks that can fly and you know we know

1483
00:53:25,829 --> 00:53:23,040
that the dinosaurs died as a result of a

1484
00:53:29,190 --> 00:53:25,839
giant rock that was much bigger you know

1485
00:53:30,950 --> 00:53:29,200
tens of kilometers in size

1486
00:53:32,950 --> 00:53:30,960
and of course the dinosaurs didn't have

1487
00:53:34,950 --> 00:53:32,960
astronomers to warn them

1488
00:53:36,790 --> 00:53:34,960
they didn't have science so they just

1489
00:53:39,990 --> 00:53:36,800
saw this giant rock

1490
00:53:44,870 --> 00:53:40,000
approaching them and boom you know

1491
00:53:47,910 --> 00:53:46,390
it must have been an amazing experience

1492
00:53:49,750 --> 00:53:47,920
to see this rock getting bigger and

1493
00:53:50,230 --> 00:53:49,760
bigger and eventually hitting the earth

1494
00:53:52,630 --> 00:53:50,240
you know

1495
00:53:53,910 --> 00:53:52,640
but they died as a result and we came in

1496
00:53:57,430 --> 00:53:53,920
their place

1497
00:53:59,670 --> 00:53:57,440
um and we have science to warn us

1498
00:54:00,710 --> 00:53:59,680
in advance with these telescopes like

1499
00:54:02,630 --> 00:54:00,720
pan stars

1500
00:54:04,390 --> 00:54:02,640
surveying the sky and in three years

1501
00:54:05,430 --> 00:54:04,400
there would be a much better telescope

1502
00:54:07,430 --> 00:54:05,440
doing that

1503
00:54:09,510 --> 00:54:07,440
uh called the vera rubin observatory

1504
00:54:09,990 --> 00:54:09,520
that will have a survey of the sky

1505
00:54:13,349 --> 00:54:10,000
called

1506
00:54:15,990 --> 00:54:13,359
lsst aimed at finding things that

1507
00:54:16,950 --> 00:54:16,000
survey could find on more more like

1508
00:54:20,309 --> 00:54:16,960
objects

1509
00:54:21,510 --> 00:54:20,319
every month so my point is in a few

1510
00:54:24,470 --> 00:54:21,520
years

1511
00:54:26,470 --> 00:54:24,480
we could have many of those discovered

1512
00:54:28,870 --> 00:54:26,480
and then study them in detail

1513
00:54:30,630 --> 00:54:28,880
we don't need to wait very long we just

1514
00:54:32,470 --> 00:54:30,640
need to collect the evidence

1515
00:54:34,790 --> 00:54:32,480
and let you know unless we decide to

1516
00:54:36,309 --> 00:54:34,800
bury our head in the sand again and say

1517
00:54:38,390 --> 00:54:36,319
we don't care about these objects

1518
00:54:41,430 --> 00:54:38,400
because we know what they are you know

1519
00:54:44,150 --> 00:54:41,440
so um all together i see

1520
00:54:45,510 --> 00:54:44,160
a lot of prospects for making progress

1521
00:54:47,190 --> 00:54:45,520
in this context and

1522
00:54:49,829 --> 00:54:47,200
it's just a new way of searching for

1523
00:54:53,270 --> 00:54:49,839
civilizations that was never

1524
00:54:53,990 --> 00:54:53,280
used before not based on radio signals

1525
00:54:57,349 --> 00:54:54,000
or

1526
00:54:58,870 --> 00:54:57,359
looking with telescopes at other stars

1527
00:55:00,870 --> 00:54:58,880
you know just

1528
00:55:02,069 --> 00:55:00,880
searching our backyard for objects that

1529
00:55:04,390 --> 00:55:02,079
came along

1530
00:55:05,430 --> 00:55:04,400
yeah right and you know i mean a lot of

1531
00:55:08,470 --> 00:55:05,440
people know

1532
00:55:12,150 --> 00:55:08,480
the very visible work of seti using

1533
00:55:14,950 --> 00:55:12,160
uh radio you know signals to try to find

1534
00:55:16,710 --> 00:55:14,960
life when there's literally a million

1535
00:55:19,589 --> 00:55:16,720
other ways we could be searching

1536
00:55:21,349 --> 00:55:19,599
right and you know we we sent out

1537
00:55:24,309 --> 00:55:21,359
voyager 1 voyager 2

1538
00:55:25,829 --> 00:55:24,319
new horizons we're sending space junk

1539
00:55:27,910 --> 00:55:25,839
and so

1540
00:55:29,990 --> 00:55:27,920
you know it's quite natural to imagine

1541
00:55:32,150 --> 00:55:30,000
there being objects in space that were

1542
00:55:35,190 --> 00:55:32,160
sent by other civilizations and

1543
00:55:36,870 --> 00:55:35,200
you know currently all our eggs are in

1544
00:55:38,789 --> 00:55:36,880
one basket here on earth

1545
00:55:41,270 --> 00:55:38,799
yeah everything we care about is here

1546
00:55:43,030 --> 00:55:41,280
and if something catastrophic happens

1547
00:55:44,870 --> 00:55:43,040
we will lose everything we care about

1548
00:55:46,950 --> 00:55:44,880
and i wrote actually a

1549
00:55:48,789 --> 00:55:46,960
a an essay to scientific american

1550
00:55:51,990 --> 00:55:48,799
recently talking about

1551
00:55:55,030 --> 00:55:52,000
noise spaceship which

1552
00:55:58,150 --> 00:55:55,040
uh relates to this the biblical story in

1553
00:56:01,270 --> 00:55:58,160
the old testament that talks about noah

1554
00:56:02,230 --> 00:56:01,280
who was worried about the the great

1555
00:56:05,510 --> 00:56:02,240
flood

1556
00:56:07,829 --> 00:56:05,520
killing all the animals so he uh built

1557
00:56:09,349 --> 00:56:07,839
an ark and by the way this the

1558
00:56:12,870 --> 00:56:09,359
dimensions of the ark

1559
00:56:14,230 --> 00:56:12,880
are given explicitly in the bible

1560
00:56:16,230 --> 00:56:14,240
they are not very different from the

1561
00:56:19,430 --> 00:56:16,240
dimensions of i should say

1562
00:56:21,829 --> 00:56:19,440
by chance uh but

1563
00:56:22,549 --> 00:56:21,839
the story goes that he put animals in

1564
00:56:25,589 --> 00:56:22,559
the ark

1565
00:56:26,230 --> 00:56:25,599
and save them from the great flood so we

1566
00:56:28,789 --> 00:56:26,240
can

1567
00:56:31,430 --> 00:56:28,799
have a similar concept saving life on

1568
00:56:33,990 --> 00:56:31,440
earth from a catastrophe

1569
00:56:35,670 --> 00:56:34,000
by sending out a spaceship now that

1570
00:56:37,190 --> 00:56:35,680
doesn't mean that the spaceship needs to

1571
00:56:40,150 --> 00:56:37,200
be huge

1572
00:56:42,470 --> 00:56:40,160
so that you can dock elephants and

1573
00:56:45,190 --> 00:56:42,480
whales and birds

1574
00:56:46,950 --> 00:56:45,200
actually all you need to know is the dna

1575
00:56:49,750 --> 00:56:46,960
of those animals

1576
00:56:50,549 --> 00:56:49,760
put it on a computer all this

1577
00:56:53,109 --> 00:56:50,559
information

1578
00:56:54,309 --> 00:56:53,119
and have a 3d printer and just go to

1579
00:56:58,789 --> 00:56:54,319
other places

1580
00:57:01,750 --> 00:56:58,799
and reproduce life synthetically

1581
00:57:02,549 --> 00:57:01,760
out of the knowledge that we have about

1582
00:57:05,750 --> 00:57:02,559
the dna

1583
00:57:07,430 --> 00:57:05,760
of all forms of life on earth

1584
00:57:09,030 --> 00:57:07,440
and so in principle you can send the

1585
00:57:11,990 --> 00:57:09,040
cubesat it doesn't need to be

1586
00:57:14,069 --> 00:57:12,000
a giant ark in a giant spaceship could

1587
00:57:17,270 --> 00:57:14,079
be a small thing that goes

1588
00:57:19,270 --> 00:57:17,280
to another planet and reproduces what we

1589
00:57:22,150 --> 00:57:19,280
care about here on earth

1590
00:57:22,549 --> 00:57:22,160
right we we've come a long way from uh

1591
00:57:24,870 --> 00:57:22,559
gold

1592
00:57:26,630 --> 00:57:24,880
discs right and sending those out i

1593
00:57:28,710 --> 00:57:26,640
think we're making progress

1594
00:57:30,150 --> 00:57:28,720
by the way uh about making progress you

1595
00:57:33,270 --> 00:57:30,160
know there is this

1596
00:57:35,829 --> 00:57:33,280
uh question could humans

1597
00:57:36,549 --> 00:57:35,839
survive in space or or could humans

1598
00:57:39,670 --> 00:57:36,559
adapt

1599
00:57:39,990 --> 00:57:39,680
to a habitat that floats in space well

1600
00:57:43,349 --> 00:57:40,000
you know

1601
00:57:43,589 --> 00:57:43,359
humans uh adapted from the environment

1602
00:57:46,150 --> 00:57:43,599
of

1603
00:57:47,349 --> 00:57:46,160
africa to an apartment building in

1604
00:57:49,349 --> 00:57:47,359
manhattan

1605
00:57:51,270 --> 00:57:49,359
it's a very different environment only

1606
00:57:53,030 --> 00:57:51,280
over a hundred thousand years within a

1607
00:57:55,430 --> 00:57:53,040
hundred thousand years

1608
00:57:57,589 --> 00:57:55,440
instead of being in the jungle you know

1609
00:58:00,069 --> 00:57:57,599
you find people living comfortably

1610
00:58:01,589 --> 00:58:00,079
well until the pandemic in an apartment

1611
00:58:05,510 --> 00:58:01,599
building

1612
00:58:06,470 --> 00:58:05,520
yeah the leap of living in space may not

1613
00:58:10,150 --> 00:58:06,480
be

1614
00:58:12,950 --> 00:58:10,160
much bigger yeah if i can attest to that

1615
00:58:15,670 --> 00:58:12,960
living right now in new york city

1616
00:58:16,789 --> 00:58:15,680
during a lockdown uh with the train

1617
00:58:19,030 --> 00:58:16,799
outside my window

1618
00:58:20,549 --> 00:58:19,040
i will take space any day over that i'll

1619
00:58:22,870 --> 00:58:20,559
be for sure

1620
00:58:24,870 --> 00:58:22,880
um all right well i guess i got two more

1621
00:58:28,549 --> 00:58:24,880
listener questions if you don't mind

1622
00:58:30,950 --> 00:58:28,559
um do you acknowledge any probability of

1623
00:58:32,630 --> 00:58:30,960
our our bombs that we set off you know

1624
00:58:35,030 --> 00:58:32,640
in the 40s and whatnot

1625
00:58:36,630 --> 00:58:35,040
was this some sort of beacon if there is

1626
00:58:39,910 --> 00:58:36,640
an intelligence out there

1627
00:58:43,109 --> 00:58:39,920
of acknowledging us and uh

1628
00:58:47,190 --> 00:58:43,119
kind of like says scout us

1629
00:58:48,789 --> 00:58:47,200
out in and that's one possible signal

1630
00:58:52,230 --> 00:58:48,799
that we can look for but

1631
00:58:55,750 --> 00:58:52,240
but i would say you know like signals of

1632
00:58:57,990 --> 00:58:55,760
of radiation like radio waves

1633
00:58:59,349 --> 00:58:58,000
we've been transmitting for a century

1634
00:59:02,069 --> 00:58:59,359
radio waves

1635
00:59:02,789 --> 00:59:02,079
and that means that for a hundred years

1636
00:59:04,710 --> 00:59:02,799
this

1637
00:59:07,270 --> 00:59:04,720
there is a sphere of radio waves that

1638
00:59:10,309 --> 00:59:07,280
went 100 light years away

1639
00:59:11,829 --> 00:59:10,319
and if there is any civilization within

1640
00:59:14,950 --> 00:59:11,839
a hundred light years

1641
00:59:17,430 --> 00:59:14,960
that has radio telescopes like we have

1642
00:59:18,870 --> 00:59:17,440
they will know about our existence i

1643
00:59:21,510 --> 00:59:18,880
actually did this calculation

1644
00:59:22,150 --> 00:59:21,520
and with our technology it's possible to

1645
00:59:24,950 --> 00:59:22,160
tell

1646
00:59:26,710 --> 00:59:24,960
that we exist out to a distance of tens

1647
00:59:28,549 --> 00:59:26,720
of light years

1648
00:59:31,190 --> 00:59:28,559
of course it will take a lot of time for

1649
00:59:33,349 --> 00:59:31,200
us to hear back

1650
00:59:36,549 --> 00:59:33,359
but it's already possible that we were

1651
00:59:38,870 --> 00:59:36,559
careless that we were not careful enough

1652
00:59:39,750 --> 00:59:38,880
not to announce that we exist and the

1653
00:59:43,190 --> 00:59:39,760
reason i say

1654
00:59:43,750 --> 00:59:43,200
that is i think it's much more prudent

1655
00:59:47,349 --> 00:59:43,760
much

1656
00:59:50,470 --> 00:59:47,359
smarter to be quiet and listen

1657
00:59:52,150 --> 00:59:50,480
first before speaking out because you

1658
00:59:55,510 --> 00:59:52,160
never know what the risks

1659
00:59:57,750 --> 00:59:55,520
are out there and we were not careful

1660
00:59:59,670 --> 00:59:57,760
once again a sign of us not being very

1661
01:00:02,789 --> 00:59:59,680
intelligent

1662
01:00:04,710 --> 01:00:02,799
so um who knows yeah

1663
01:00:06,470 --> 01:00:04,720
there are some predators out there and

1664
01:00:08,710 --> 01:00:06,480
we will hear from them at some point

1665
01:00:09,829 --> 01:00:08,720
yep yep i think if everyone just

1666
01:00:12,230 --> 01:00:09,839
listened a little more

1667
01:00:13,190 --> 01:00:12,240
uh our world would be better off and

1668
01:00:16,230 --> 01:00:13,200
hopefully

1669
01:00:16,870 --> 01:00:16,240
the many universes out there as well but

1670
01:00:18,630 --> 01:00:16,880
um

1671
01:00:20,789 --> 01:00:18,640
last listener question here comes from

1672
01:00:21,510 --> 01:00:20,799
mike on twitter he wants to know what is

1673
01:00:25,109 --> 01:00:21,520
your favorite

1674
01:00:26,549 --> 01:00:25,119
episode of star trek any incarnation do

1675
01:00:29,109 --> 01:00:26,559
you have an answer for that

1676
01:00:30,950 --> 01:00:29,119
yeah well um unfortunately you know i

1677
01:00:34,309 --> 01:00:30,960
don't like science fiction

1678
01:00:36,309 --> 01:00:34,319
uh because uh in uh

1679
01:00:37,910 --> 01:00:36,319
books of science many of the books or

1680
01:00:40,950 --> 01:00:37,920
films on science fiction

1681
01:00:44,470 --> 01:00:40,960
the laws of physics are violated and i

1682
01:00:46,230 --> 01:00:44,480
cannot i cannot enjoy it uh when i see

1683
01:00:47,910 --> 01:00:46,240
something that makes no sense to me as a

1684
01:00:50,069 --> 01:00:47,920
physicist

1685
01:00:52,309 --> 01:00:50,079
i just give up you know i i don't follow

1686
01:00:55,349 --> 01:00:52,319
the plot it makes no sense to me

1687
01:00:57,589 --> 01:00:55,359
yeah so um i don't like

1688
01:01:00,390 --> 01:00:57,599
science fiction actually i i enjoy

1689
01:01:03,030 --> 01:01:00,400
science and i enjoy fiction

1690
01:01:04,309 --> 01:01:03,040
but i well there are some exceptions i

1691
01:01:05,670 --> 01:01:04,319
should say there are some very good

1692
01:01:08,710 --> 01:01:05,680
films that are not far

1693
01:01:12,150 --> 01:01:08,720
from being scientifically accurate

1694
01:01:13,990 --> 01:01:12,160
but they're all minority yeah they they

1695
01:01:16,549 --> 01:01:14,000
truly are i know what you mean i'm the

1696
01:01:17,430 --> 01:01:16,559
same i uh i'm a playwright here in new

1697
01:01:19,270 --> 01:01:17,440
york city

1698
01:01:21,510 --> 01:01:19,280
and uh there's many times i go see a

1699
01:01:22,710 --> 01:01:21,520
play and i can't enjoy it because i'm

1700
01:01:25,750 --> 01:01:22,720
too

1701
01:01:28,390 --> 01:01:25,760
busy and my mind is reeling about

1702
01:01:30,789 --> 01:01:28,400
the dialogue being terrible or the the

1703
01:01:33,190 --> 01:01:30,799
structure of the play not being right so

1704
01:01:33,990 --> 01:01:33,200
i completely understand i'm also a star

1705
01:01:37,030 --> 01:01:34,000
wars guy

1706
01:01:40,630 --> 01:01:37,040
so um um

1707
01:01:45,030 --> 01:01:40,640
but in closing avi i'd love to ask um

1708
01:01:46,870 --> 01:01:45,040
you know the book covers more than just

1709
01:01:48,870 --> 01:01:46,880
i want to make that very clear to the

1710
01:01:50,950 --> 01:01:48,880
audience um you were kind enough to give

1711
01:01:51,430 --> 01:01:50,960
me an advanced copy to look over and i

1712
01:01:56,069 --> 01:01:51,440
was

1713
01:01:59,670 --> 01:01:56,079
and just moved into many directions so

1714
01:02:03,029 --> 01:01:59,680
besides what what do you hope that

1715
01:02:06,230 --> 01:02:03,039
readers will take away from the book uh

1716
01:02:07,589 --> 01:02:06,240
except just about this one interstellar

1717
01:02:10,069 --> 01:02:07,599
object that could

1718
01:02:11,029 --> 01:02:10,079
be alien what else did you really want

1719
01:02:13,270 --> 01:02:11,039
to say with the books

1720
01:02:15,589 --> 01:02:13,280
so it's really interesting that thinking

1721
01:02:19,270 --> 01:02:15,599
about alien life

1722
01:02:22,150 --> 01:02:19,280
teaches us about ourself and

1723
01:02:24,150 --> 01:02:22,160
you know the way we behave right now not

1724
01:02:27,029 --> 01:02:24,160
not even considering that possibility

1725
01:02:30,230 --> 01:02:27,039
within the mainstream of science

1726
01:02:34,230 --> 01:02:30,240
uh tells you something it tells you

1727
01:02:37,270 --> 01:02:34,240
why you know we don't behave uh

1728
01:02:40,230 --> 01:02:37,280
in in in a more uh

1729
01:02:40,950 --> 01:02:40,240
collegial way and we don't cooperate as

1730
01:02:43,430 --> 01:02:40,960
much and

1731
01:02:44,470 --> 01:02:43,440
you know i give the example in the book

1732
01:02:46,710 --> 01:02:44,480
of the

1733
01:02:48,549 --> 01:02:46,720
amount of money that was invested in the

1734
01:02:51,029 --> 01:02:48,559
second world war

1735
01:02:51,829 --> 01:02:51,039
that could have been used for science

1736
01:02:54,630 --> 01:02:51,839
and in fact

1737
01:02:55,910 --> 01:02:54,640
churchill wrote a paper just before the

1738
01:02:59,109 --> 01:02:55,920
war started

1739
01:02:59,910 --> 01:02:59,119
in which he discussed the possibility of

1740
01:03:02,630 --> 01:02:59,920
life

1741
01:03:04,150 --> 01:03:02,640
around other stars but he became the

1742
01:03:07,430 --> 01:03:04,160
prime minister

1743
01:03:10,789 --> 01:03:07,440
and didn't really pursue him

1744
01:03:12,470 --> 01:03:10,799
this this interest of his instead he had

1745
01:03:14,870 --> 01:03:12,480
to worry about

1746
01:03:16,549 --> 01:03:14,880
you know fighting the germans that were

1747
01:03:17,109 --> 01:03:16,559
killing a lot of the people in england

1748
01:03:19,349 --> 01:03:17,119
and

1749
01:03:20,710 --> 01:03:19,359
so there were huge amount of resources

1750
01:03:24,069 --> 01:03:20,720
dedicated to

1751
01:03:27,510 --> 01:03:24,079
a destructive purpose and if instead

1752
01:03:30,789 --> 01:03:27,520
it was dedicated to churches vision of

1753
01:03:33,829 --> 01:03:30,799
searching for life around other stars

1754
01:03:36,309 --> 01:03:33,839
we would perhaps know by now the answer

1755
01:03:37,510 --> 01:03:36,319
whether we are alone or not so my point

1756
01:03:40,069 --> 01:03:37,520
is

1757
01:03:41,109 --> 01:03:40,079
with a better perspective you know we

1758
01:03:43,990 --> 01:03:41,119
can

1759
01:03:45,029 --> 01:03:44,000
make much more progress as humans you

1760
01:03:48,630 --> 01:03:45,039
know

1761
01:03:49,349 --> 01:03:48,640
and i really wish that more people will

1762
01:03:51,270 --> 01:03:49,359
accept that

1763
01:03:52,549 --> 01:03:51,280
and that we can all work together

1764
01:03:54,549 --> 01:03:52,559
towards a better future and

1765
01:03:55,990 --> 01:03:54,559
not pretend that we know the answer in

1766
01:03:58,069 --> 01:03:56,000
advance and not

1767
01:03:59,910 --> 01:03:58,079
fight each other let's just try to

1768
01:04:01,990 --> 01:03:59,920
figure things out together

1769
01:04:04,069 --> 01:04:02,000
you know just as if we are kids trying

1770
01:04:06,390 --> 01:04:04,079
to learn about the world

1771
01:04:08,150 --> 01:04:06,400
and i should say that the one thing that

1772
01:04:10,950 --> 01:04:08,160
surprised me about the book

1773
01:04:13,109 --> 01:04:10,960
at this point in time is that it's not

1774
01:04:16,069 --> 01:04:13,119
it's ranked number one on amazon

1775
01:04:18,470 --> 01:04:16,079
in the astronomy section three weeks

1776
01:04:21,589 --> 01:04:18,480
before publication

1777
01:04:23,829 --> 01:04:21,599
without any reviews right

1778
01:04:25,190 --> 01:04:23,839
so i'm really surprised by that because

1779
01:04:28,390 --> 01:04:25,200
it means that there is

1780
01:04:29,990 --> 01:04:28,400
as you as you alluded to there is hunger

1781
01:04:32,950 --> 01:04:30,000
or interest

1782
01:04:34,230 --> 01:04:32,960
in this subject and partly it's because

1783
01:04:37,190 --> 01:04:34,240
the scientific community

1784
01:04:38,950 --> 01:04:37,200
is starving the public on you know

1785
01:04:42,950 --> 01:04:38,960
intentionally

1786
01:04:45,990 --> 01:04:42,960
suppressing any discussion that is open

1787
01:04:46,950 --> 01:04:46,000
on these issues and i'm trying to break

1788
01:04:49,190 --> 01:04:46,960
this barrier

1789
01:04:51,029 --> 01:04:49,200
in the book so i very much hope that

1790
01:04:53,750 --> 01:04:51,039
people will enjoy it

1791
01:04:55,910 --> 01:04:53,760
bobby i mean thank you for feeding us

1792
01:04:58,549 --> 01:04:55,920
that's that's really all i can say

1793
01:05:00,309 --> 01:04:58,559
as one of those hungry people i'm glad

1794
01:05:00,870 --> 01:05:00,319
that there's someone out someone out

1795
01:05:04,470 --> 01:05:00,880
there

1796
01:05:07,829 --> 01:05:04,480
thinking of uh speaking of humanity over

1797
01:05:08,870 --> 01:05:07,839
uh military over mainstream perception

1798
01:05:11,430 --> 01:05:08,880
of science and

1799
01:05:11,990 --> 01:05:11,440
uh really shaken things up man you are a

1800
01:05:14,150 --> 01:05:12,000
rebel

1801
01:05:15,430 --> 01:05:14,160
and uh you know as someone who grew up

1802
01:05:18,150 --> 01:05:15,440
on punk music

1803
01:05:20,150 --> 01:05:18,160
uh those are the people i respect so

1804
01:05:22,150 --> 01:05:20,160
tell us where we can get the book

1805
01:05:24,069 --> 01:05:22,160
and please tell us where we can find

1806
01:05:26,150 --> 01:05:24,079
everything you're up to

1807
01:05:27,589 --> 01:05:26,160
well you can find a book in any outlet

1808
01:05:30,230 --> 01:05:27,599
that sells books

1809
01:05:31,990 --> 01:05:30,240
for example on amazon uh it's already

1810
01:05:34,950 --> 01:05:32,000
out for sale and

1811
01:05:36,309 --> 01:05:34,960
it will come out in three weeks on

1812
01:05:39,510 --> 01:05:36,319
january 26

1813
01:05:41,430 --> 01:05:39,520
2021 in the us and then

1814
01:05:43,190 --> 01:05:41,440
it will be published in more than 20

1815
01:05:46,309 --> 01:05:43,200
countries worldwide

1816
01:05:49,829 --> 01:05:46,319
oh wow and i should say uh

1817
01:05:53,349 --> 01:05:49,839
over the past couple of days i had

1818
01:05:55,750 --> 01:05:53,359
you know a few filmmakers from hollywood

1819
01:05:58,710 --> 01:05:55,760
contact me

1820
01:06:00,870 --> 01:05:58,720
and i told my literary agent that if it

1821
01:06:04,630 --> 01:06:00,880
ever becomes a film

1822
01:06:06,950 --> 01:06:04,640
i want brad pitt to play my role

1823
01:06:09,109 --> 01:06:06,960
i can see it man hey he's done

1824
01:06:09,829 --> 01:06:09,119
interstellar before i'm sure he'll do it

1825
01:06:11,829 --> 01:06:09,839
again

1826
01:06:12,870 --> 01:06:11,839
i could see it i could definitely see it

1827
01:06:14,630 --> 01:06:12,880
well those uh

1828
01:06:16,309 --> 01:06:14,640
i know after the book comes out those

1829
01:06:16,950 --> 01:06:16,319
phone calls are going to keep coming man

1830
01:06:19,190 --> 01:06:16,960
so

1831
01:06:20,309 --> 01:06:19,200
thank you for all the work you've done

1832
01:06:22,710 --> 01:06:20,319
all the work you will

1833
01:06:23,910 --> 01:06:22,720
continue to do again the book is called

1834
01:06:26,069 --> 01:06:23,920
extraterrestrial

1835
01:06:28,309 --> 01:06:26,079
the first sign of intelligent life

1836
01:06:30,390 --> 01:06:28,319
beyond earth avi thank you so much for

1837
01:06:38,030 --> 01:06:30,400
joining me on somewhere in the skies